Are the Tories going too far? Watch

Rakas21
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Troytheboy)
On the one hand it is good because in theory it should lower the possibility of terrorist attacks ultimately, because closing a mosque with an extremist orator prevents large scale indoctrination. It also may deter mosque from allowing extremist speakers within their premises for the fear of being shut down.

But it also has its possible negative effects. Shutting down the mosque due to one extremist being present may cause agitation in the community because they may have no other place of worship or have to commute far to go to a Mosque: if they are devout Muslims this could be quite the change.

Also forgive my naivety but isn't an extremist allowed to express their views? You have extreme nationalist which threaten to hurt other members of society but they are not punished because it comes under the category of free speech. If May only punished Muslim extremist wouldn't that be discriminatory?

I understand the reasons why she have proposed this idea in reality Britain's number of Muslim extremist are rising but I think this could anger more people than needed.
This sounds like appeasement.

Instead of fearing the rising number, let's out the potential traitors so that the security services can deal with them. This country has coming up for 70 million people to protect (including a few million Muslims), if these measures annoy a few thousand Muslims who are sympathetic to ISIS and the like then so be it.

(Original post by crosstalk)
I would be interested to see the reaction from the public if this ever comes to pass.
I highly doubt there'll be one outside the standard leftist groups or the EDL. Most people seem to support anti-Muslim measures which is hardly surprising given the media accounts of Islamists.
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futbol
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#22
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No far enough, we need more cuts.
We can't stay in the EU as we need to keep Parliament soverign.
Only the tories truly care about the working class.
We can't leave the EU as its our biggest trading partner.
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Wade-
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Raymat)
Well they should target the Islamists not the Mosques. If my local Mosque was closed down I would feel quite hurt especially when it's the only one that is close to me.
But why would you want to continue going to a mosque where you're having hate preached at you?


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Gnomes&Knights
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Wade-)
But why would you want to continue going to a mosque where you're having hate preached at you?


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Poeple go to the mosque to pray and they have a choice to attend the talks. Like a said in an earlier quote, mosque committees should make an effort to bar off radical speakers and I've never witnessed a radical speaker giving a radicalising talk in a mosque. Mosques invite different speakers once in a while and the committee might not be aware which ones are radicalised so one event shouldn't just lead to an immediate closure of the mosque.
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Al-farhan
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(Original post by Raymat)
This is a bit ridiculous. If they have a problem with radical speakers/teachers/imams then they might as well ban them, arrest them or even deport them but this is a bad idea;
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2015/...closure-orders
Well we are a pluralistic society and we must defend our values of pluralism through draconian laws, infringing on rights of minorities and scapegoating an entire section of the population and deeming every member of said community suspicious and worthy of harassment, on an individual level and on a community level.
We must also stifle debate and not encourage inter community dialogue and understanding, instead we must fear-monger and we must spread the flames of suspicion between communities and further deepen the divide and sensationalism.
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Thoth's World
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#26
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[QUOTE=Rakas21;54541111]This sounds like appeasement.

Instead of fearing the rising number, let's out the potential traitors so that the security services can deal with them. This country has coming up for 70 million people to protect (including a few million Muslims), if these measures annoy a few thousand Muslims who are sympathetic to ISIS and the like then so be it.


Are you saying that law-abiding Muslims should suffer on the behalf on a minority who are extremist? because not all Muslims are 'sympathetic' to ISIS and it would affect more than a few thousand according to the 2011 census there are 2,786,635 Muslims in the UK, making it the second largest religion.

My fear is that this tactic will only cause unnecessary social unrest, unnecessary problems from an unnecessary measure. Wouldn't it be better to arrest the preacher and keep surveillance on the mosque
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Rakas21
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54543741]
(Original post by Rakas21)
This sounds like appeasement.

Instead of fearing the rising number, let's out the potential traitors so that the security services can deal with them. This country has coming up for 70 million people to protect (including a few million Muslims), if these measures annoy a few thousand Muslims who are sympathetic to ISIS and the like then so be it.


Are you saying that law-abiding Muslims should suffer on the behalf on a minority who are extremist? because not all Muslims are 'sympathetic' to ISIS and it would affect more than a few thousand according to the 2011 census there are 2,786,635 Muslims in the UK, making it the second largest religion.

My fear is that this tactic will only cause unnecessary social unrest, unnecessary problems from an unnecessary measure. Wouldn't it be better to arrest the preacher and keep surveillance on the mosque
Law abiding Muslims have nothing to fear unless they are going to a Mosque that supports radical views.
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PopaPork
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#28
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#28
About time

Muslims were given the chance to get their house in order and they have repeatedly failed to do so

But as I said about time this happened
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Thoth's World
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#29
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#29
[QUOTE=Rakas21;54544177]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

Law abiding Muslims have nothing to fear unless they are going to a Mosque that supports radical views.
You're assuming that everyone who attends or uses that mosque is an extremist. How about those who attend to pray without listening to the preacher?
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PopaPork
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#30
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54544831]
(Original post by Rakas21)

You're assuming that everyone who attends or uses that mosque is an extremist. How about those who attend to pray without listening to the preacher?
Then they need to get of their knees and stop extremists from attending or being allowed to speak
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Thoth's World
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#31
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[QUOTE=PopaPork;54545031]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

Then they need to get of their knees and stop extremists from attending or being allowed to speak
Given the situation that a Muslim attends a mosque to pray and there is an extremist in their vicinity. I can assume that they would act the same as the majority of the British population and fear to speak against the orator. Not to mention, if they attend the same mosque as the extremist orator then they will most likely be living in the same area. Meaning that there is a higher chance they can be harmed?
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Thoth's World
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#32
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[QUOTE=PopaPork;54545031]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

Then they need to get of their knees and stop extremists from attending or being allowed to speak
And by fear to speak against the orator I mean being in a situation where the orator is in front of you and you live in the same area as him/her knowing full well they have the means to harm you or your family.
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PopaPork
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#33
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54545487]
(Original post by PopaPork)

Given the situation that a Muslim attends a mosque to pray and their is an extremist in their vicinity. I can assume that they would act the same as the majority of the British population and fear to speak against the orator. Not to mention, if they attend the same mosque as the extremist orator then they will most likely be living in the same area. Meaning that there is a higher chance they can be harmed?
All I can do is give you a football analogy

I remember when all of the fans were punished because of the actions of a few

AS a result the MAJORITY of fans took action against this

This is what we expect Muslim to do and we have been very patient while this was being done.

However muslims have constantly failed to do this so we now expect the government to take action on societies behalf.
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PopaPork
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#34
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54545517]
(Original post by PopaPork)

And by fear to speak against the orator I mean being in a situation where the orator is in front of you and you live in the same area as him/her knowing full well they have the means to harm you or your family.
Are you telling me this is why muslims do nothing to prevent their mosques from hosting extremist events?
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Thoth's World
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#35
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[QUOTE=PopaPork;54545555]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

All I can do is give you a football analogy

I remember when all of the fans were punished because of the actions of a few

AS a result the MAJORITY of fans took action against this

This is what we expect Muslim to do and we have been very patient while this was being done.

However muslims have constantly failed to do this so we now expect the government to take action on societies behalf.
Not be allowed to indulge in 90 minutes of entertainment because of a FEW football fans is not the same as a person possibly with children and a family has a high risk of being harmed from speaking against an orator.

Let me give you an analogy:

There is a big stern school bully in the yard. He steals the children's sweets.

The children dislike having their sweet stolen but they do not tell the teacher because they are scared the bully will hurt them when they are alone.

That happens a lot in schools doesn't it?
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Thoth's World
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[QUOTE=PopaPork;54545573]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

Are you telling me this is why muslims do nothing to prevent their mosques from hosting extremist events?
It is one possible reason, I am speculating. You or me do not know the answer to this complex problem so let's not get caught up in the oven and forget the pudding. The reason I am replying to your answers is because I have opposing views, but you may have some valid points which spark thought: ultimately resulting in a well rounded result as to how you can help both sides of the coin.
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PopaPork
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#37
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54545667]
(Original post by PopaPork)

Not be allowed to indulge in 90 minutes of entertainment because of a FEW football fans is not the same as a person possibly with children and a family has a high risk of being harmed from speaking against an orator.

Let me give you an analogy:

There is a big stern school bully in the yard. He steals the children's sweets.

The children dislike having their sweet stolen but they do not tell the teacher because they are scared the bully will hurt them when they are alone.

That happens a lot in schools doesn't it?
For me it's the same they are both about choice and 'something people do'

Yes it does and we are taught to stand up to bullies (still waiting for you to confirm this does happen in mosques)

and by working in groups we can defeat the bully (and I know in our school we did just that)

But sorry if this is why you think you shouldn't take any action then I'm glad the government is going to step in as appeasement and cowardice seems to be your choice and this solves noting


But I ask again are you saying the reason muslim do not prevent hate speakers is because of fear
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Thoth's World
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[QUOTE=PopaPork;54545819]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

For me it's the same they are both about choice and 'something people do'

Yes it does and we are taught to stand up to bullies (still waiting for you to confirm this does happen in mosques)

and by working in groups we can defeat the bully (and I know in our school we did just that)

But sorry if this is why you think you shouldn't take any action then I'm glad the government is going to step in as appeasement and cowardice seems to be your choice and this solves noting


But I ask again are you saying the reason muslim do not prevent hate speakers is because of fear
I have answered this in my other quote, I suppose you will see it soon. In schools we are caught up to stand against bullies but that is clearly not the case in reality. People do not stand up against bullies, there are many cases of depression and death on the account of bullies.
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Thoth's World
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54545897]
(Original post by PopaPork)

I have answered this in my other quote, I suppose you will see it soon. In schools we are caught up to stand against bullies but that is clearly not the case in reality. People do not stand up against bullies, there are many cases of depression and death on the account of bullies.
And hold your horses before you let them run. I did not say that the government should not take action. I suggested that they should implement another method to stop the problem, one that does not affect the community on the sole basis of an individual.

Would you like to be arrested because your friend stole a sweet and you was with him minding your business at the time?
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PopaPork
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#40
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[QUOTE=Troytheboy;54545927]
(Original post by Troytheboy)

Would you like to be arrested because your friend stole a sweet and you was with him minding your business at the time?
If i am there and I know he's stolen something I am culpable if I do nothing to prevent this

This is common
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