Rights of the father. Watch

Zargabaath
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#21
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#21
(Original post by bittr n swt)
i totally agree.
Both should be using protection however the pill isn't 100% effective but if a condom doesn't split then surely there's no chance of getting pregnant
The pill is more effective then the condom. The problem is condoms do split, when used perfectly, condoms are 98% effective but typically they are only 85% effective. The pill is 99% effective.

(Original post by garfeeled)
Yes the women is the one who will get pregnant but ultimately the act of bring about a child ( at least in the traditional sense ) requires his action. Doesn't it make far more sense for it to be both their responsibility.
I completely agree it should should be an equal responsibility thing ideally. But in the end it's going to be the woman who's going to get pregnant. In a one-night-stand type scenario where they may never meet again, it's the woman who looses out in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. Makes more sense to protect yourself then to rely on a stranger to.

Honestly though, I think most sexual couples (is that even a real phrase?) can be trusted to decide for themselves what's gonna work best for them. There's not one size fits all solution with this (especially not with condoms heh heh). If they aren't prepared for the possible risks of sex, they shouldn't be having it.
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DorianGrayism
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#22
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(Original post by limetang)
That isn't the reality though is it. All women are capable of earning a living, if they choose to have a child knowing that the father will not support them financially that's their decision.
What isn't the reality? The Tax payer is going to foot the bill if all Child support stops or Children will end up having sub-standard care.

And it is also the Father's decision to have sexual intercourse or not bother with contraception in the knowledge that Pregnancy is a possibility.
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garfeeled
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#23
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(Original post by Zargabaath)
The pill is more effective then the condom. The problem is condoms do split, when used perfectly, condoms are 98% effective but typically they are only 85% effective. The pill is 99% effective.



I completely agree it should should be an equal responsibility thing ideally. But in the end it's going to be the woman who's going to get pregnant. In a one-night-stand type scenario where they may never meet again, it's the woman who looses out in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. Makes more sense to protect yourself then to rely on a stranger to.

Honestly though, I think most sexual couples (is that even a real phrase?) can be trusted to decide for themselves what's gonna work best for them. There's not one size fits all solution with this (especially not with condoms heh heh). If they aren't prepared for the possible risks of sex, they shouldn't be having it.
You say ideally they both bear responsibility so why not in the real world. After all he should be in a position to think, hey unprotected sex she could get pregnant or transfer of disease I'm gonna a wear a condemn even if she hasn't asked me to. Isn't his lack of action him being neglegent as well as her.
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jazjaz
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#24
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#24
(Original post by bittr n swt)
Father should and can walk away if they don't want anything to do with the kid.
But the father should be taken responsibility, should have put a condom on.
And what about sperm jacking and women that lie about being on the pill?
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silverbolt
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#25
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(Original post by Zargabaath)
Why is it the fathers responsibility to use protection? The woman's the one who at risk of getting pregnant, why shouldn't she take responsibility?
Instead of slinging blame back and forth you show some maturity and just put something on bloody end of it despite what she says.
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Zargabaath
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#26
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(Original post by Octopus_Garden)
1) Man is at risk of having a child he doesn't want
2) Man is at risk of contracting any of a number of unpleasant STIs if he doesn't routinely use condoms with new partners.
I was getting at it shouldn't be assumed that contraception is any one genders responsibility. It's up to both parties to protect themselves as they both are at risk. Whether this is using contraception yourself or simply not having sex with someone who refuses to use contraception. This applies to all sexual encounters, not just typical 2 person heterosexual ones.
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garfeeled
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#27
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#27
(Original post by limetang)
That isn't the reality though is it. All women are capable of earning a living, if they choose to have a child knowing that the father will not support them financially that's their decision. Women get pregnant, contraception is their responsibility, that can include insisting that the man wears a condom, but the buck stops with women when they decide what contraception they're going to use as they're the ones who get pregnant.

Contrary to popular belief, I personally can't see how contraception is anybody responsibility apart from that of the person who gets pregnant. It's their body, their responsibility. Of course there are things men can do here, but as I see it it is the responsibility of the woman to say what contraception she'd like the man to be using if they're to have sex (if he lies and has sex without a condom for example then that's a different issue).
Of course a women could insist on him wearing a condemn but why shouldn't he blew responsibility for not making such a decision himself. Why if she fails to require a condom should she be the sole responsible for supporting the potential child, he has after all engaged in the action that produces the chi,d knowing that such an event would be a possibility.
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limetang
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
What isn't the reality? The Tax payer is going to foot the bill if all Child support stops or Children will end up having sub-standard care.

And it is also the Father's decision to have sexual intercourse or not bother with contraception in the knowledge that Pregnancy is a possibility.
That bit there isn't necessarily the reality. It's going to be true in some cases, but it's certainly not going to be true in all the cases.

Also that second argument is lousy (for some reasons that I've expanded upon above), but also because that's not the standard we hold women to is it? If it were the abortion debate would have been settled overnight.
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limetang
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#29
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#29
(Original post by garfeeled)
Of course a women could insist on him wearing a condemn but why shouldn't he blew responsibility for not making such a decision himself. Why if she fails to require a condom should she be the sole responsible for supporting the potential child, he has after all engaged in the action that produces the chi,d knowing that such an event would be a possibility.
Because it's the womans body, she's the one who gets pregnant, she's the one who is responsible for taking necessary precautions. Sex isn't something that just happens to women. They are active participants in it, they know the risks, and if they hypothetically knew that the man they're sleeping with will not be there to financially support her and her child if she does get pregnant, then THAT is the risk SHE takes when she has sex.
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Zargabaath
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#30
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(Original post by garfeeled)
You say ideally they both bear responsibility so why not in the real world. After all he should be in a position to think, hey unprotected sex she could get pregnant or transfer of disease I'm gonna a wear a condemn even if she hasn't asked me to. Isn't his lack of action him being neglegent as well as her.
Because the real world isn't ideal. Are you going to force him to think like that? Believe it or not, there are selfish people out there. The point is you can't rely on a stranger for your own protection, your safety is your responsibility.

If someone's acting like a **** and refusing to use contraception, don't have sex with them. It's that simple.
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Zargabaath
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(Original post by silverbolt)
Instead of slinging blame back and forth you show some maturity and just put something on bloody end of it despite what she says.
read my other posts
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limetang
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#32
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(Original post by Zargabaath)
Because the real world isn't ideal. Are you going to force him to think like that? Believe it or not, there are selfish people out there. The point is you can't rely on a stranger for your own protection, your safety is your responsibility.

If someone's acting like a **** and refusing to use contraception, don't have sex with them. It's that simple.
I agree with this. I would say that there is an exception in the event of a man lying about the fact he's using a condom, etc.
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garfeeled
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#33
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#33
(Original post by limetang)
Because it's the womans body, she's the one who gets pregnant, she's the one who is responsible for taking necessary precautions. Sex isn't something that just happens to women. They are active participants in it, they know the risks, and if they hypothetically knew that the man they're sleeping with will not be there to financially support her and her child if she does get pregnant, then THAT is the risk SHE takes when she has sex.
But the reverse can be applied, he knows she might get pregnant, he knows a child may result and the he may be expected to provide financial aid.
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Octopus_Garden
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#34
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(Original post by jazjaz)
And what about sperm jacking and women that lie about being on the pill?
I'm not convinced the first happens, as most condoms on sale in the UK are impregnated with spermicide, aren't they?

Can't imagine the semen being very motile after a couple of hours on a bedroom floor inside a spermicide impregnated condom, but I'm open to hearing any studies to the contrary. It's not something I've studied.

People lie. They lie about being on the pill, about being STI free, etc.

Women also tell the truth about being on the pill, but the pill can fail.
Night 1: two people have sex. Woman takes pill as usual
Night 2-5: woman develops nasty norovirus that strikes her down with diarrhoea and vomiting. Both of which affect the pill's effectiveness. Guess how long sperm are reputed to be able to survive for within the reproductive system? Five days.
Woman gets pregnant.
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Zargabaath
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#35
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(Original post by limetang)
I agree with this. I would say that there is an exception in the event of a man lying about the fact he's using a condom, etc.
Which is why I would say use contraception anyway if you don't know the other person very well, or if you have any doubts. Better to be safe then sorry. People should think about the potential consequences about the actions they're taking.

EDIT: btw it's pretty easy to tell when someone's not wearing a condom lol, but I get what you mean
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DorianGrayism
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#36
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(Original post by limetang)
That bit there isn't necessarily the reality. It's going to be true in some cases, but it's certainly not going to be true in all the cases.

Also that second argument is lousy (for some reasons that I've expanded upon above), but also because that's not the standard we hold women to is it? If it were the abortion debate would have been settled overnight.
It doesn't make a difference if isn't true in all cases. The reality is that Single parents are more likely to ask and need support from the State. Therefore, it makes no sense to increase the level of dependency on the state by giving Fathers a free ride.

No. I hold women to exactly the same standard. If she doesn't want to have a child then she can either not have sex or wear contraception. Otherwise, the child can go for Adoption.
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ha27
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#37
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I,as a teenage girl who really wants kids when grown up, feel that fathers do not get rights and that is wrong.

I think it is wrong how a woman doesnt need to listen to a word the father has to say she can do what she wants and the father literally has no say in whether she gets an abortion i think it is sad

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bittr n swt
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#38
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#38
(Original post by jazjaz)
And what about sperm jacking and women that lie about being on the pill?
yeah that's disgusting and it does happen and in these cases, the man can wash his hands off the kid and woman
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limetang
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#39
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(Original post by garfeeled)
But the reverse can be applied, he knows she might get pregnant, he knows a child may result and the he may be expected to provide financial aid.
But my argument is pretty much be summarised as "my body, my choice, my responsibility". Because pregnancy is exclusively something that happens to a womans body and because sex is something (bar in the case of rape) that women do willingly the buck stops with them when it comes to decisions they make when it comes to avoiding pregnancy. Women have the ultimate set of rights and responsibilities when it comes to pregnancy, which include things like when asking a man to wear a condom, that man must wear a condom when having sex otherwise he is committing a sexual crime. The responsibility of both partners in sex is to comply with the conditions each partner places upon sex taking place, the responsibility of a womans fertility is the responsibility of the woman. Pregnancy therefore in the case where the intention of sex has not been to conceive a child is therefore the womans responsibility.

This is why the argument of "he made his choice when he has sex" falls flat, because his choice was not procreation, his choice was recreational sex.
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RosaSparkles
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(Original post by garfeeled)
So it seems the thread about the women who was tricked into aborting her pregnancy as devolved into a debate about what rights the father should or shouldn't have when it comes to children.

And by rights I mean should the father have involvement ( legally ) on whether the baby is kept or not
Should the father have a right to walk away without consequence to his actions.
Should the mother have a right to obligate the father to pay child support.
Forgot to mention this first time round but people have brought it up, should the father be obligated to have emotional/practical involvement in the child's life separate of financial support,
Basically potential legal obligations of the father.

I myself am undecided on the issue . My present thinking is over idealistic and could never be used for a real legal system.
I think the father should get a chance to say his view on whether the child should be kept or not, but ultimately it should be the woman's decision. It's her body after all

I am undecided on financial stuff, but I think he should have emotional involvement in the child's life. Even if that just means visiting the child on a regular basis. Children should have the right to know their father.

On a separate note, I think men should be given much longer paternity leave- it's only two weeks here in the UK...


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