Salmond and his evil plan. Watch

scrotgrot
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Fanatical Geek)
But what if they're the largest single party - but the other smaller parties ally together just because they don't like the Conservatives, and want to "keep them out."

Technically speaking, there's nothing constitutionally undemocratic about that, but in that scenario are they acting int the interests of the people? Or the parties themselves?

Is that democratic? That it's possible that the party with the most votes may not end up in government?




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Yes, it is democratic - or as democratic as we are able to make work with a six-party system or whatever it is these days.

You could equally argue it would not be in the interests of the people for the Tories and Lib Dems to form a government if they are 30 or 40 short of a majority. Nevertheless, they could attempt to soldier on as a minority government. That too would be as democratic an outcome as possible under our system.

In fact, whatever the result, Cameron will, as the incumbent, have the first chance to form a government, even if the Tories only got 100 seats; that's the way it works, and the way it worked in 2010. The problem is only the Lib Dems (25 seats), UKIP (3 seats) and possibly the DUP (8 seats) will consider the Tories. That means they will have to win 290 seats to have even a technical majority with four parties, and that looks like a tall order.

You talk about "the other smaller parties ally together just because they don't like the Conservatives". But it will actually be the Tories who have to ally with two or more other parties to form a majority; it looks like Labour will be able to do it with just the SNP.
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Fanatical Geek
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#22
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#22
(Original post by scrotgrot)
Yes, it is democratic - or as democratic as we are able to make work with a six-party system or whatever it is these days.

You could equally argue it would not be in the interests of the people for the Tories and Lib Dems to form a government if they are 30 or 40 short of a majority. Nevertheless, they could attempt to soldier on as a minority government. That too would be as democratic an outcome as possible under our system.

In fact, whatever the result, Cameron will, as the incumbent, have the first chance to form a government, even if the Tories only got 100 seats; that's the way it works, and the way it worked in 2010. The problem is only the Lib Dems (25 seats), UKIP (3 seats) and possibly the DUP (8 seats) will consider the Tories. That means they will have to win 290 seats to have even a technical majority with four parties, and that looks like a tall order.

You talk about "the other smaller parties ally together just because they don't like the Conservatives". But it will actually be the Tories who have to ally with two or more other parties to form a majority; it looks like Labour will be able to do it with just the SNP.
I guess you're right.

But don't get me started on a Labour/SNP alliance.

I honestly wouldn't mind Milliband as.a PM - unless he's only doing the job effectively with the people who want to break up the UK.

Even the Green's wacky, poorly planned policies are preferable to the country-breakers.

Same applies to Plaid Cymru in the interest of fairness.


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scrotgrot
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Fanatical Geek)
I guess you're right.

But don't get me started on a Labour/SNP alliance.

I honestly wouldn't mind Milliband as.a PM - unless he's only doing the job effectively with the people who want to break up the UK.

Even the Green's wacky, poorly planned policies are preferable to the country-breakers.

Same applies to Plaid Cymru in the interest of fairness.


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The thing is the reason for the rise of the SNP is the two main parties themselves: they are within the Thatcherite consensus, which Scotland and many other regions have never acceded to. Really it is they who are breaking up the country.

The SNP will have been elected on an anti-austerity platform and between them and (with such a narrow majority) the few remaining left-wing Labour backbenchers we may well finally get to see a move to the left in this country - and not the idiotic PC left either, the proper left. I wouldn't want Labour to lose this time and win in 2020 as that will be a landslide and once again the Blairites will hold the reins.

I am a unionist Englishman with no connection whatsoever to Scotland, but if the SNP were standing down here I would vote for them in a heartbeat.
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TIS200
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#24
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#24
Scrotgrot, finally I am on your side!

What I want is a proper conservative RIGHT wing party and a proper labour LEFT wing party. I'm sick of PC and all this liberal crap the parties are spewing out. No good lying, I've always liked the Tories but I've been gravitating towards UKIP (even though I would never vote them.. wasted vote).
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Fanatical Geek
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#25
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#25
(Original post by TIS200)
Scrotgrot, finally I am on your side!

What I want is a proper conservative RIGHT wing party and a proper labour LEFT wing party. I'm sick of PC and all this liberal crap the parties are spewing out. No good lying, I've always liked the Tories but I've been gravitating towards UKIP (even though I would never vote them.. wasted vote).
I think the parties are still different, but not different enough.

One thing that bugs me ATM is the Conservatives are being vague about where they are making the savings - while Labour simply says where they're spending, NOT where they are making the savings (all we know is that 1/2 the £30bn will come through tax raises.)


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MaxReid
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#26
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In my view, the Scots have accepted that they're part of the UK and given a massive mandate and endorsement to the union, therefore they must accept the government of the union whatever it is. I don't think any of the unionist parties should work with the SNP. I think maybe the main parties will have to only field one candidate in each seat to prevent an SNP landslide, just my opinion
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Fanatical Geek
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#27
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#27
(Original post by MaxReid)
In my view, the Scots have accepted that they're part of the UK and given a massive mandate and endorsement to the union, therefore they must accept the government of the union whatever it is. I don't think any of the unionist parties should work with the SNP. I think maybe the main parties will have to only field one candidate in each seat to prevent an SNP landslide, just my opinion
Won't make a difference - Scotland may have said no (by a 10% margin) but they are now voting SNP to show that they want the promises of the main party leaders during the referendum campaign.

Adding more candidates won't make any difference.


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TIS200
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#28
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I'd rather have a coalition of the Tories and Labour than let the SNP in.

If Tories and Labour went back to right and left rather than all that centre crap, maybe the smaller parties would go back to the main parties then we can start having majorities again.


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MaxReid
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Fanatical Geek)
Won't make a difference - Scotland may have said no (by a 10% margin) but they are now voting SNP to show that they want the promises of the main party leaders during the referendum campaign.

Adding more candidates won't make any difference.


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I guess there's going to be an SNP backed minority Labour administration, but is that really a good idea?
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MaxReid
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I think if there's going to be a government of two parties, I would rather it was Lib-Lab or Lib-Con rather than SNP-anything
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MaxReid
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#31
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The party with the most votes will not end up in government necessarily, as the SNP wouldn't support a Tory minority gov't and the Lib Dems wouldn't have enough MPs to do so.
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Quady
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#32
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#32
(Original post by TIS200)
My eyes have never burned so much. The sound of his evil plan is so repulsive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32045419

Basically, the SNP (well, Alex) wants to block out the Tory government with a coalition with Labour. Thoughts on this? It would be against democracy.. You can't block parties (well the Nazis did..). Starting something, eh Alex?

GET YOUR DIRTY HANDS OFF OUR DEMOCRACY & ENGLAND, ALEX!
The SNP/Alex don't want a coalition with Labour.

This is democracy at work in the UK... if you don't like it then you're agreeing with some of the reasons they wanted to leave the UK.
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Quady
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#33
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#33
(Original post by MaxReid)
In my view, the Scots have accepted that they're part of the UK and given a massive mandate and endorsement to the union, therefore they must accept the government of the union whatever it is. I don't think any of the unionist parties should work with the SNP. I think maybe the main parties will have to only field one candidate in each seat to prevent an SNP landslide, just my opinion
That would drive more people to vote SNP...
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Unistudent77
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#34
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#34
(Original post by MaxReid)
In my view, the Scots have accepted that they're part of the UK and given a massive mandate and endorsement to the union, therefore they must accept the government of the union whatever it is. I don't think any of the unionist parties should work with the SNP. I think maybe the main parties will have to only field one candidate in each seat to prevent an SNP landslide, just my opinion
If Scotland votes in more than 30 SNP MPs the UK no longer has a democratic mandate to govern Scotland (technically, not in reality). It would appear to me that the SNP will do very well in May. They are standing on a 'devomax' ticket, either Westminster deliver a swathe of new powers or the SNP stand on another independence referendum ticket in the 2016 Scottish elections and then we have another referendum circa 2018-2020.

That's how I see it panning out. I want Devo max and not full independence but I can see the latter occuring if people continue to hold such attitudes at displayed by OP. That it's unfair Scotland can influence rUK. That's democracy. Scotland never votes Tory (excluding the Sclttish Tory party ie 1954 GE) so finally Scotland will be represented down south.

P.S. I vote Tory up here... Before I get heckled for being a 'leftie'
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Quady
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Unistudent77)
That's how I see it panning out. I want Devo max and not full independence but I can see the latter occuring if people continue to hold such attitudes at displayed by OP. That it's unfair Scotland can influence rUK. That's democracy. Scotland never votes Tory (excluding the Sclttish Tory party ie 1954 GE) so finally Scotland will be represented down south.

P.S. I vote Tory up here... Before I get heckled for being a 'leftie'
In '54 Scotland voted >50%, the SNP won't manage that.

Scotland voted Labour '97, '01 and '05 so its not been so long since they've been represented down south.
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Quady
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#36
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#36
(Original post by TIS200)
I know enough to base my opinion, why didn't we get to vote for independence too? Surely, we should be able to vote whether we want to be part of this union anymore? Why should the Scottish vote and we don't?
Because the English electorate doesn't have a groundswell of opinion wanting it.

The chatter in England is all abou the EU.
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Quady
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#37
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(Original post by TIS200)
Let's not turn this in to a big party debate. All I wanted to know was opinions on the SNP wanting to block the Tory government. It is a clear breach of democracy that our grandparents fought for.
No its exactly how our democracy is setup.

What did our grandparents fight for exactly? That a minority government can't have a no-confidence motion against them?
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MaxReid
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#38
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(Original post by Unistudent77)
If Scotland votes in more than 30 SNP MPs the UK no longer has a democratic mandate to govern Scotland (technically, not in reality). It would appear to me that the SNP will do very well in May. They are standing on a 'devomax' ticket, either Westminster deliver a swathe of new powers or the SNP stand on another independence referendum ticket in the 2016 Scottish elections and then we have another referendum circa 2018-2020.

That's how I see it panning out. I want Devo max and not full independence but I can see the latter occuring if people continue to hold such attitudes at displayed by OP. That it's unfair Scotland can influence rUK. That's democracy. Scotland never votes Tory (excluding the Sclttish Tory party ie 1954 GE) so finally Scotland will be represented down south.

P.S. I vote Tory up here... Before I get heckled for being a 'leftie'
A Tory government would have legitimacy as it would be the government elected by the whole United Kingdom, which Scotland voted to remain a part
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Unistudent77
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Quady)
In '54 Scotland voted >50%, the SNP won't manage that.

Scotland voted Labour '97, '01 and '05 so its not been so long since they've been represented down south.
True, but throughout the Thatcher years etc it wasn't.
That is fine since Scotkand voted for unionist parties, comes with the territory of being in the UK, as part of a 'family of nations'.

However, the SNP are (obviously) not a unionist party. Therefore, by voting them in you are effectively electing them to fight Scotland's corner, knowing fine well their aim is independence.

They will push for Devo max in May (in return for propping Labour up or whatever), if this doesn't happen
1) Scotland will be infuriated further
2) they will stand on an independence referendum ticket in 2016 and then we'll have to see but it looks like they'll get a landslide there too and then we reach another constitutional crisis point.

Deliver Devo max - the union stays for the foreseeable
Don't deliver - watch it end pretty soon.

Personally, I'd hate a Labour government. I'm not left leaning but I do like the SNP. They're a far more competent Labour, a mixture of policies since they are 'centrists' (in a global sense) and are a eclectic mix since they're a movement.

They'd probably split after a term in an independent Scotland. Some would go centre-left and some more centre, or a little right. I'd be very much for a rebirth of the 'Scottish Conservatives' (old one, not the one that has since been amalgamated in the UK Conservative and Unonist Party which has zero autonomy) as I believe small c conservatism has decent support up here just not under the toxic brand of the current Tories.
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Unistudent77
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#40
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(Original post by MaxReid)
A Tory government would have legitimacy as it would be the government elected by the whole United Kingdom, which Scotland voted to remain a part
If they get above 326 seats then true....

How is that statement relevant to the current polls though?

How can the SNP not vote against a Tory minority? Why not? It's been voted for in strong majority (looks likely) by one of the countries in our 'family of nations' (David Cameron).

If Wales vote Plaid Cymru in its the same...

Why should the DUP be propping up the Tories then? That's not what the English have voted (Labour voters would say), how's that fair?

Oh wait, it is fair because Northern Ireland is part of the UK and as a result they can be represented by whoever they elect in parliament. Much like Scotland.

Your whole argument is basically, 55% (of those who voted) of Scotland voted NO so we can now take all power over you since you agreed to stay in the union.... At least that's how it comes across to me.

I did vote YES in the referendum but I'd actually prefer to remain in the union but with 'Devo max' is almost full autonomy bar Defence etc.
Over 70% of Scots want Devo max, recent polls have put YES/NO neck and neck even a few 52% YES, 48% NO. To be expected since the old votes so heavily NO (the only age group in recent polls to still vote NO) so as times goes on NO will decline unless something changes.

It's up to you. Either accept we want Devo max, give that and Scotland will remain a good partner in the union for a decent while or ignore us and we'll leave.
You may not like the SNP's involvement but you better get used to the idea
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