Feminism and biology. Watch

tim_123
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#21
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#21
(Original post by drowzee)
Feminist here and I completely agree that men and women are not biologically identical/equal, that is just stupid. That does not mean we cannot be equal though. Men and women both have their own biological strengths and weaknesses. The way I see it is that you're more likely to see a man in a hands on, labour type of work. However, you're more likely to see women in more nurturing type jobs, such as nursing. But our biology does not define us, and we should not ridicule men and women that want to do things that are typically associated with their gender. It is about shattering these gender stereotypes. The biology of our body seems to be an indictor to how we're likely to act, and define what we enjoy, but we all know there anomalies, and many men and women (if not most) possess some qualities that may be typical in the other gender. Referring to the 'man up' phrase, it is not the worst thing in the world, but it does make me cringe when someone says it. Not only is it sexist to women, but is sexist to men.
you seem pretty reasonable. Would you say hardline feminists are causing such a stir with nonsensical opinions that it is ditracting from the real issues? Or is it a media hype?
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Dalek1099)
Since when was trying to stop fighting illegal:confused:
It was in the student house and the police were called because someone heard screaming and the police assumed he was the perpetrator.
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Unicorndog
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#23
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Yes wanting equality between genders is sooo crazy.

What next? Equality for every race or sexuality?!

Oh wait. :congrats:
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adorbat
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(Original post by tim_123)
what about when feminists say it is sexist to use the term 'man up', because it implies men are stronger than women.
The phrase "man up" is more to do with being mentally strong than physically; it's the idea that someone should "act like a man", based on the stereotypical (and ridiculous) idea that men are logical and do not overreact, whereas women are emotional and flighty.

Personally, I think that when it comes to inequality, there are much bigger issues out there; this is just a minor irritation. However, the general idea behind it is both prevalent and problematic, in two ways;

1) It perpetuates the idea that women are irrational. Obviously this is an unfair generalisation, and is problematic in many ways.

2) It actually also puts pressure on men, and teaches them that to show emotion is to be weak.

Feminists in general are concerned about both of these issues. I understand not wanting to label yourself, and perhaps even feeling left out due to the name of the movement. However, being vehemently anti-feminist, is, in my opinion, counter productive for both genders. Nobody is arguing that men and women are biologically identical. That would be ridiculous. However, there is also vast variation among men and women individually. There are strong men, and there are weak men; to suggest that they should be treated differently, or to make conjectures about what they are like as a person, based on this, is silly.
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tim_123
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#25
(Original post by Unicorndog)
Yes wanting equality between genders is sooo crazy.What next? Equality for every race or sexuality?! Oh wait. :congrats:
bravo for 1) completely missing the point of this thread. And 2) having absolutely no relevant input to the discussion
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drowzee
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(Original post by tim_123)
you seem pretty reasonable. Would you say hardline feminists are causing such a stir with nonsensical opinions that it is ditracting from the real issues? Or is it a media hype?
Well I believe it is a bit of both. What saddens me is that you have extremists in ever group, and the extremists tend to be the loudest, and have their voice heard the most, thus more media hype. Their nonsensical opinions are being picked up by the media because these feminists have a louder voice, and it is more entertaining to read about. We don't care about most of the trivial issues, we care about real issues like gender roles, equal pay, parental custody etc. Most feminists actually do care about men's issues as well as women's.

I'd also like to mention these so called radical feminists are not actually feminists, they are misandrists.
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tim_123
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#27
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(Original post by adorbat)
The phrase "man up" is more to do with being mentally strong than physically; it's the idea that someone should "act like a man", based on the stereotypical (and ridiculous) idea that men are logical and do not overreact, whereas women are emotional and flighty.

Personally, I think that when it comes to inequality, there are much bigger issues out there; this is just a minor irritation. However, the general idea behind it is both prevalent and problematic, in two ways;

1) It perpetuates the idea that women are irrational. Obviously this is an unfair generalisation, and is problematic in many ways.

2) It actually also puts pressure on men, and teaches them that to show emotion is to be weak.

Feminists in general are concerned about both of these issues. I understand not wanting to label yourself, and perhaps even feeling left out due to the name of the movement. However, being vehemently anti-feminist, is, in my opinion, counter productive for both genders. Nobody is arguing that men and women are biologically identical. That would be ridiculous. However, there is also vast variation among men and women individually. There are strong men, and there are weak men; to suggest that they should be treated differently, or to make conjectures about what they are like as a person, based on this, is silly.
Mental toughness is an interesting point. I would argue, and you won't like this, that men are inherently mentally tougher than women. From my experience in the work place, and throughout life, I have often found men cope a lot better with mental strain. Furthermore, for some reason I have never met a man with anxiety, and yet I seem to know loads of women who all seem to suffer from it.
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bittr n swt
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#28
(Original post by tim_123)
Mental toughness is an interesting point. I would argue, and you won't like this, that men are inherently mentally tougher than women. From my experience in the work place, and throughout life, I have often found men cope a lot better with mental strain. Furthermore, for some reason I have never met a man with anxiety, and yet I seem to know loads of women who all seem to suffer from it.
You're absolutely right and it's been proven too.
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drowzee
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#29
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#29
(Original post by adorbat)
The phrase "man up" is more to do with being mentally strong than physically; it's the idea that someone should "act like a man", based on the stereotypical (and ridiculous) idea that men are logical and do not overreact, whereas women are emotional and flighty.

Personally, I think that when it comes to inequality, there are much bigger issues out there; this is just a minor irritation. However, the general idea behind it is both prevalent and problematic, in two ways;

1) It perpetuates the idea that women are irrational. Obviously this is an unfair generalisation, and is problematic in many ways.

2) It actually also puts pressure on men, and teaches them that to show emotion is to be weak.

Feminists in general are concerned about both of these issues. I understand not wanting to label yourself, and perhaps even feeling left out due to the name of the movement. However, being vehemently anti-feminist, is, in my opinion, counter productive for both genders. Nobody is arguing that men and women are biologically identical. That would be ridiculous. However, there is also vast variation among men and women individually. There are strong men, and there are weak men; to suggest that they should be treated differently, or to make conjectures about what they are like as a person, based on this, is silly.
Could not have said it better myself, I completely agree.
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Dalek1099
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#30
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#30
(Original post by DiddyDec)
It was in the student house and the police were called because someone heard screaming and the police assumed he was the perpetrator.
That sounds like an illegal arrest to me the Police must have reasonable grounds to arrest you and assuming someone had done it is not good enough I don't think.What made them come to the conclusion it was him?
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DiddyDec
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Dalek1099)
That sounds like an illegal arrest to me the Police must have reasonable grounds to arrest you and assuming someone had done it is not good enough I don't think.What made them come to the conclusion it was him?
Because he is built like a brick ****house and he was drunk. They released him once they got the full story and then didn't arrest the actual perpetrator.
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Unicorndog
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#32
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#32
(Original post by tim_123)
bravo for 1) completely missing the point of this thread. And 2) having absolutely no relevant input to the discussion
It was in reply to pervious comments about feminists being nutters.

Bravo for being an imbecile and congratulations on being able to count to two.
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tim_123
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Unicorndog)
It was in reply to pervious comments about feminists being nutters.Bravo for being an imbecile and congratulations on being able to count to two.
im hoping to be able to count up to double digits soon, these things take time
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adorbat
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#34
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#34
(Original post by tim_123)
Mental toughness is an interesting point. I would argue, and you won't like this, that men are inherently mentally tougher than women. From my experience in the work place, and throughout life, I have often found men cope a lot better with mental strain. Furthermore, for some reason I have never met a man with anxiety, and yet I seem to know loads of women who all seem to suffer from it.
You could argue that. You would be wrong. Personal experience is not evidence, especially when coloured by confirmation bias. The stereotype tells us that men are mentally strong, so you have likely fit your experiences into that frame of reference. This is something that is absolutely down to the individual.

I would argue that this is a very dangerous, not to mention antiquated, way of thinking. Assuming that men do not suffer from anxiety is exactly the attitude that can cause men who do suffer from mental health issues to feel weak and not seek help. Men are actually more likely to successfully commit suicide than women, and one of the perceived reasons for this is that they do not feel as comfortable reaching out for help. Also, in general, having a mental illness does NOT make you mentally weak. That is the same as calling someone who is physically disabled mentally weak. Just silly.
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Dalek1099
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#35
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#35
(Original post by adorbat)
You could argue that. You would be wrong. Personal experience is not evidence, especially when coloured by confirmation bias. The stereotype tells us that men are mentally strong, so you have likely fit your experiences into that frame of reference. This is something that is absolutely down to the individual.

I would argue that this is a very dangerous, not to mention antiquated, way of thinking. Assuming that men do not suffer from anxiety is exactly the attitude that can cause men who do suffer from mental health issues to feel weak and not seek help. Men are actually more likely to successfully commit suicide than women, and one of the perceived reasons for this is that they do not feel as comfortable reaching out for help. Also, in general, having a mental illness does NOT make you mentally weak. That is the same as calling someone who is physically disabled mentally weak. Just silly.
Do you mean physically weak here?I think most people would class people who are physically disabled physically weak they wouldn't last long in a boxing ring and its similar for mental illness as well people who have them can't stand as much stress and it takes less for it to be to much for them compared to other people.

You do raise a very important point men do experience anxiety but hide it a lot more I don't think most of the people I know would think I do but I do my family knows about my issues but I usually keep most of it private as I don't want to be perceived as weak even though I am mentally weak.
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tim_123
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#36
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#36
(Original post by adorbat)
You could argue that. You would be wrong. Personal experience is not evidence, especially when coloured by confirmation bias. The stereotype tells us that men are mentally strong, so you have likely fit your experiences into that frame of reference. This is something that is absolutely down to the individual.I would argue that this is a very dangerous, not to mention antiquated, way of thinking. Assuming that men do not suffer from anxiety is exactly the attitude that can cause men who do suffer from mental health issues to feel weak and not seek help. Men are actually more likely to successfully commit suicide than women, and one of the perceived reasons for this is that they do not feel as comfortable reaching out for help. Also, in general, having a mental illness does NOT make you mentally weak. That is the same as calling someone who is physically disabled mentally weak. Just silly.
i actually agree with what your saying. Well put
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jammy4041
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While this thread seems to have been derailed in considering the term 'man up' (somewhat cringeworthy, but ultimately, not the worst thing in the world), women lack the equality in society. It's not that women are not athletically capable and need physical equality. That's simply not going to happen, but it's about getting equality as best as possible in all aspects of society, and it comes through by challenging the Patriarchal society in which we live in, and which has shaped our society, over generations, through a new outlook on things. That's what my definition of Feminism is.

In terms of athleticism, look at women such as Paula Radcliffe, who would have been able to run a marathon faster than 99% of men. Look at the female Jamaican sprinters. Not many people run an 11.00 100m, yet alone something that approaches 10.50. What about Ronda Rousey who looks like she would be able to beat up many average men in a MMA fight. Heck, Billie Jean King whupped Bobby Briggs, a former top tennis player, in the Battle of the Sexes (which was really liberating for the Feminist movement, and forced Briggs who was an unabashed chauvinistic pig to hush his mouth.) And don't tell me that Serena Williams would not be able to compete with some of the Tennis players, in a three or five set game. I don't see it. There's also an Indian-Australian girl, who is scoring hundreds, for fun, in the local boys' cricket team, and who could be the next big thing for Australian women's cricket. A school which produced the likes of Peter Siddle. Shane Warne also came from a nearby town.

I can also happily accept that there are women who are far more gifted athletically than I can ever hope to be.

So, please, it's not that women don't have the capability to be elite athletically. Sure, maybe the elite women are not quite as good as the elite men, but no feminist will suggest that it can be so. However, it is wrong to say that any man could step into women's sports and succeed. That's totally misguided.

Taking this sport analogy further. There is so much time, coaches, money, infrastructure, TV exposure etc. invested in men's sport, in the UK, in the US and elsewhere, that it almost gives the message to young girls that they shouldn't play sport. That's wrong. Rather, a feminist response could be that women's sports should get more TV exposure, infrastructure, time, money and coaches etc.

Why is it that Sky Sports doesn't show many women's sports, and concentrates its focus on men's sports? Sure, maybe the quality isn't as good, but women's sports do pretty well considering that they don't have the resources of men's sports? Why isn't there a sports channel dedicated to women's sports?

Therefore, I think a lot of it, isn't because of a biological-determinist position, especially with regard to sport, but it's societal. It's conditioned.

However, the fact does remain that, because of differences in biology, women are expected to have different roles to men, especially in the patriarchal society we see today. Again, that's wrong. Women shouldn't be excluded from being engineers, or physicists or anything, simply based on biology. Feminism is therefore required to write that wrong.

It's also really misguided to suggest that women and men don't have equal intelligence. Intelligence is something that can be measured in different ways. Again, a lot of women can show an aptitude for mathematics. Heck, my A-level Physics had As at GCSE and at A-Levels in all of her subjects, and a first-class degree from Cambridge University, in Physics. That's something I know for a fact...and well, a lot of people on TSR studying STEM subjects, male or female, would wish they could achieve something close to that. But then again, women haven't exactly had the same opportunities in education, as men have, looking at it from a historical perspective.
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Gwilym101
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#38
(Original post by tim_123)
Feminists say men and women are equal, and seem to feel this is true in all areas.

If men and women are truly equal, then biologically speaking they should, on average, have equal strength, equal intelligence etc. However this is not the case. Men and women are genetically designed to be different.

Therefore, men and women can never be equal.

Discuss
Men and women are not designed at all.

It is a fluke of our evolution that males evolved as the primary gathers and a fluke that as a result of that evolutionary role that males ended on average stronger than females (in many instances in the natural kingdom males evolved to be smaller than females). This was later built on by the emergence of our cultures, that men were hunters and fighters and that a womans place was at home.

Fundamentally minor differences in strength or intelligence does not affect a persons worth. What they do with their abilities can, but simple biological traits that can change from generation to generation don't.
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Chodaboy
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#39
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(Original post by jammy4041)
While this thread seems to have been derailed in considering the term 'man up' (somewhat cringeworthy, but ultimately, not the worst thing in the world), women lack the equality in society.
But that's just not true. Women are equal in all areas of society and in some cases actually have things far better. A women can do and achieve absolutely everything a man can in society, but a man can't do everything a woman can. A man is viewed as less important and has less laws protecting him. His issues are largely dismissed as a joke while people will bend over backwards to make sure women are happy.

The one area of life this isn't true is where biology and physiology comes into play - sporting or athletic events. I won't quote the rest of your post because it's quite long, but you keep referencing some magical patriarchy that is some how oppressing women (when there is zero evidence of this today) and ignoring common sense and reality. Women and men are not equal biologically and the best men are always better than the best women in physical sports.

I honestly don't see the point in having women at the Olympics because in my eyes it's just a waste of time. Why show me the best athletes in the world and then a bunch of inferior athletes? What is the point? In the London olympics 100m final, the fastest woman was slower than all of the men by almost a second except one man who injured himself during the race. Of course all those women could beat me in a race but what does that have to do with anything? I'm not training to be an athlete. Why watch the women run when you know the best woman would come last if she competed with men? The same is true for all physical womens sports. It's not showed on tv that often because for the most part it's inferior and a joke compared to the male version. No one wants to see that and so it doesn't make sense financially to broadcast it.


(Original post by jammy4041)
And don't tell me that Serena Williams would not be able to compete with some of the Tennis players, in a three or five set game
Actually they did just that. Both Serena and Venus thought they were so good that they could challenge any man ranked around 200 in the world and beat him. They faced Karsten Braasch, then ranked 203. He beat Serena 6-1 and then Venus immediately stepped on the court and he beat her 6-2. So he beat both one after another with no rest and with no practice, he had been playing golf prior to their match. After the match the sisters said they wanted to challenge someone ranked 350, and again I ask what is the point. No one wants to see that, they want to see the best competing against the best. Karsten said he was able to easily win because there were shots the sisters weren't used to dealing with because they only compete with women, and he was able to return shots that women physically were incapable of returning.


(Original post by jammy4041)
However, the fact does remain that, because of differences in biology, women are expected to have different roles to men, especially in the patriarchal society we see today. Again, that's wrong. Women shouldn't be excluded from being engineers, or physicists or anything, simply based on biology. Feminism is therefore required to write that wrong.
What are you talking about? Women aren't expected to have different roles, women can do anything they want in society. They can be engineers or physicists if they want to, but that's the important key to this - if they want to. Don't confuse less women wanting to do a certain job with a patriarchy stopping them doing it. Fewer just want to do it. Of course men and women have the same intellectual potential. Feminism is not required and has no reason for existing in 2015 Britain.
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slade p
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Feminism and biology don't go together because they know if they bring up biology then it will refute what they say. They will also refute basic biology when put to them by making up false facts that fit into their narrative.
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