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Prince Charles letter-does he come off well or badly? watch

  • View Poll Results: How has Prince Charles come across from his letters
    He has come across well
    21
    80.77%
    He has come across badly
    5
    19.23%

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    Nope, sorry. Try again. Nice attempt to deflect the debate away from my points and into an ad hominem.
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    This guy should be in line, not that Charles moron.
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    (Original post by Mark8346)
    Do you consider the Prince of Walves to have the same amount of influence as an ordinary citizen?


    Pretending he is simply an ordinary citizen writing a letter to an PM is very hackish. Especially when your argument appears to be "Well do you have a problem when anyone else does it!!?"
    No, he is not a normal citizen in certain areas. He is a counsellor of state and has a public role. However, communications between the sovereign - and, I believe, her delegates - should be privileged in the same way cabinet is. It allows for a free exchange of views.
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    I'd rather have Charles a person who cares about the welfare of our nation being listened to than some lobbyist looking to maximise the profits of their company while destroying the environment.
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    (Original post by Penguinfarts)
    I'd rather have Charles a person who cares about the welfare of our nation being listened to than some lobbyist looking to maximise the profits of their company while destroying the environment.
    Why do you seem to think that it's either one or the other?

    Why should an unelected person have the ability to influence those who are elected more than anyone else simply because of who their parents are?
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Nope, sorry. Try again. Nice attempt to deflect the debate away from my points and into an ad hominem.
    There was no deflecting or ad hominem. This was your debate strategy.

    1) Imply A.
    2) Claim "I never said A!"
    3) Claim A and then attempt to justify A
    4) Claim ad hominem and deflection when 1-3 is pointed out
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    (Original post by whorace)
    You could say he is a royal pain in the ass
    ISWYDT
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    Charles ascending to the throne was probably the republican movement's best hope for gaining any traction whatsoever, and it is of the greatest irony that the Guardian, in publishing these letters, has in my view done more to improve his reputation in the mind of the public than Clarence House themselves could have ever achieved.
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    (Original post by Mark8346)
    There was no deflecting or ad hominem. This was your debate strategy.

    1) Imply A.
    2) Claim "I never said A!"
    3) Claim A and then attempt to justify A
    4) Claim ad hominem and deflection when 1-3 is pointed out
    Wrong again. Going to address my other points or cling to this dead tree?
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Wrong again. Going to address my other points or cling to this dead tree?
    It is not wrong. Let's look at your other points:

    1) Other people can influence elected members of parliament

    1a) Other people don't have the same level of influence over elected members of parliament

    2) He can't vote so it somehow balances out

    2a) unless a person's one vote is going to tip an election (it is not), then putting the weight of the royal family behind his letter is not the same level of influence that an ordinary person wields

    3) He is not directly commanding them to do one thing or another

    3a) It's is pretty obvious that he prefers one course of action over another. He doesn't need to directly say "your prince commands you to do x" to influence someone.

    4) signing off a letter as "your obedient servant" is normal

    4a) No, it is not. Furthermore do you think an "obedient servant" is not going to put higher weight on his master's opinion?

    Also, why have you dodged this?
    Why should an unelected person have the ability to influence those who are elected more than anyone else simply because of who their parents are?
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    (Original post by Mark8346)
    It is not wrong. Let's look at your other points:

    1) Other people can influence elected members of parliament

    1a) Other people don't have the same level of influence over elected members of parliament
    Some do, some don't. Depends on them, really. I'd rather the Prince of Wales do this than not, personally.

    2) He can't vote so it somehow balances out

    2a) unless a person's one vote is going to tip an election (it is not), then putting the weight of the royal family behind his letter is not the same level of influence that an ordinary person wields
    What, exactly, could the Prince of Wales do in response if a Minister replied to him saying 'No, and stop writing me letters'?

    Fact is, the only tool the Prince has is persuasion through making convincing points. And that's the most admirable kind of interaction.

    3) He is not directly commanding them to do one thing or another

    3a) It's is pretty obvious that he prefers one course of action over another. He doesn't need to directly say "your prince commands you to do x" to influence someone.
    So? He's entitled - expected, even - to voice a preference of one course over another. It's entirely in the hands of the Government if they want to listen to him.

    4) signing off a letter as "your obedient servant" is normal
    It's polite. A little old-fashioned, but still valid. I would imagine the Civil Service write up most of the letter and just follow a standard format, and the Minister reads and signs.

    4a) No, it is not. Furthermore do you think an "obedient servant" is not going to put higher weight on his master's opinion?
    The Prince of Wales isn't his master.

    Also, why have you dodged this?

    Why should an unelected person have the ability to influence those who are elected more than anyone else simply because of who their parents are?
    Because it happens all the time, everywhere, on behalf of people considerably less deserving.

    Ministers receive letters from rich and poor, from individuals and from organised groups. They cannot simply ignore them because they don't sit in the House of Commons. It would be a ridiculously inflexible rule.

    At the end of the day, if a letter they receive makes a convincing point, then a good Minister would take that point on board, and if necessary, alter his policy. At that point, whoever it's come from, the Minister alone takes responsibility for the policy he's taken.

    There are many out there who lobby for personal gain, to enrich themselves, or out of a sense of personal prejudice or diatribe. We can see from these letters than the Prince tends to take a broader approach to these things and inquires into detail on behalf of other groups (on the whole) instead of combatting government policy. And while others can threaten to vote for the other guy, or publicly campaign against the government, or donate time, money or resources to doing so, the Prince only has his letters, and his ability to persuade using reports and sources. Good on him.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Did you actually read them? Can you give examples of anything in this that he actually got the government to do (especially anything that the government was reluctant to do)?



    A perfectly ordinary and polite means of signing off a letter.
    I think possibly he was being funny, or maybe he was being really quite old fashioned and butler-like.

    Many of the letters are harmless, but some reveal personal motives and interests. For example, he is pushing hard in one lot to get a badger cull. He has a large dairy herd at Highgrove - personal interest. In another load of letters, he presses for a government move against the proposed EU restrictions on herbal medicine sales. (A very good thing, as all kinds of unscientific and even dangerous nonsense is being peddled by 'alternative' medicine manufacturers, who have become a powerful and wealthy lobby.) Highgrove and Duchy of Cornwall both sell ranges of alternative remedies like homeopathic treatments. Another clear piece of self-interest.

    There's also the point that Charles is not yet Monarch. I think we could all understand it if the Queen wrote regularly to politicians and I'm sure they would listen - she has an important constitutional role. However, Charles doesn't yet.

    I think what they reveal is an heir to the throne who has some good ideas and is a bit of a busybody, is at times really quite self-serving and who also doesn't understand the limits of his role and has nobody to put him in his place. His actions at times border on not understanding what a democracy is, or why we got rid of feudal aristocratic rule.
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    Charles is not king yet, but he will be, and I agree with the Government that this correspondence is a means of him topping up his 'training' to become the Sovereign.

    The badger cull wasn't a political issue a decade ago, so it's unfair to criticise him for that.

    On the other matters, while he does have a hand in these issues, he at least is unable to keep the profits for his sales - they go back into the Duchy. But anyway, Ministers remain free to ignore him or flatly refuse, and if they felt he was crossing the line, they would have warned him so.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Charles is not king yet, but he will be, and I agree with the Government that this correspondence is a means of him topping up his 'training' to become the Sovereign.

    The badger cull wasn't a political issue a decade ago, so it's unfair to criticise him for that.

    On the other matters, while he does have a hand in these issues, he at least is unable to keep the profits for his sales - they go back into the Duchy. But anyway, Ministers remain free to ignore him or flatly refuse, and if they felt he was crossing the line, they would have warned him so.
    Yet he clearly did cross the line many times and they clearly (at least as far as the continued flow of letters suggests) didn't warn or correct him.

    It would appear that the thought of a seat on the Privy Council or a future peerage is enough to ensure that ministers of all stripes jolly well know their place and tug forelocks regularly.

    What the Guardian is revealing is another aspect of the fairy tale that is our supposed 'democratic system'.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Yet he clearly did cross the line many times and they clearly (at least as far as the continued flow of letters suggests) didn't warn or correct him.
    This is [i]your[i] opinion of where 'the line' is. I have mine. It appears the ministers of the day agreed with me.

    It would appear that the thought of a seat on the Privy Council or a future peerage is enough to ensure that ministers of all stripes jolly well know their place and tug forelocks regularly.
    Such things are a matter for the Prime Minister. So you're simply exposing your prejudice here.

    What the Guardian is revealing is another aspect of the fairy tale that is our supposed 'democratic system'.
    Name something he got his way in defiance of the will of the people.
 
 
 

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