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    (Original post by ageshallnot)
    No it's not. If you think it's true, post links to:

    1) A statement from the German government stating that the official figure is only a fraction of the generally accepted 6 million.

    2) An official statement or other evidence from Auschwitz stating that only 'a few thousand' died.

    I don't think you can do that, can you?
    It's all here and properly sourced even photographs of official plaques making the claims:

    http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm

    This type of information is intentionally kept out of the hands of the majority of people from about 20 years of official and unofficial censorship from lobbying. (It's a "Holocaust Denial" website, need to remove it, innit).


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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    If anything, the opposite has happened, and the figures have been slightly revised upwards.

    I don't know where you've got 9 million from. The Soviet government declared 4 million almost as soon as they'd liberated Auschwitz, and no-one ever really took it seriously, and assumed it was just the Soviets trying to win sympathy from the Polish.

    Early estimates by people like Gerald Reitlinger and Raul Hilberg were around 800,000-900,000. It was only later studies in the 1980s and 1990s that concluded it was actually somewhere between 1 million and 1.5 million.

    Also, it's worth noting that the overall death toll is not quite the same thing as the Jewish death toll. The victims of Auschwitz were indeed overwhelmingly Jewish, but not entirely - probably 10% or just under were from other groups, such as non-Jewish Poles
    Raul Hilberg wrote an incredible work of fiction. To cut a long story short, the maths, logistics and engineering does not work scientifically in Hilbergs works leading to a number of people having said "oh well you have to abandon logic, sometimes you need to do that".


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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    It's all here and properly sourced even photographs of official plaques making the claims:

    http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm

    This type of information is intentionally kept out of the hands of the majority of people from about 20 years of official and unofficial censorship from lobbying. (It's a "Holocaust Denial" website, need to remove it, innit).


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    I see nothing from the German government or the authorities at Auschwitz. So I assume you agree that icdjabtjk is incorrect in making the assertions I was asking him to substantiate?
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    (Original post by icdjabtjk)
    well im not so anti-jewish.. I mean I am a bit I guess, I dont like a religion which tells people they are the chosen people (it is the same as the Nazi belief in being Aryan I think and it is used to justify many atrocities against non-jews, arabs etc in the middle east by zionist forces), and I dont like cutting off parts of a babys penis and sucking on it to suck blood out of it either, I'd actually make that illegal and maybe make judaism illegal if I was in charge, but I am sure there are many nice jewish people about and I respect anti-zionist jews. I am very anti-zionist though, Israel is a disgusting country and zionist influence across the world is quite a plague I think which we'd all be better off if we got rid of. The holocaust is of course used as a political tool to garner sympathy for evil causes, I dont see much problem with it being denied or dropped alltogether. Sure its better for history to know the full truth of things with the exact figures, it's maybe slightly disrespectful to those that did die there to completely deny any of it if some things did happen (even if it wasnt 6 million) but these people are dead now and I think it is good to have some criticism of the use of the holocaust or anything else as a political tool. also anti-semitism is not anti jewish the muslim, atheist, christian etc palestinians are far more semites than the jewish population of israel are. This is a stolen terminology which was taken away from the native population to discredit their claim to the land and give it to zionists, along with taking their land, destroying houses, wiping out their history etc. But semitic has always meant originating from the Near East area of the world, whilst most of the Jewish settlers from 1945 onwards do not originate from there and are not really semites. So it is funny but the arab palestinians are the true semites and being anti-semitic would more mean being against them than being against judaism.
    Sorry about the late reply, erratic shifts at work at the moment :lol:

    The sucking of blood after brit milah is a minority practice, carried out by a few ultra-orthodox sects. The vast majority of Jews don't practice it, and there is even a movement inside those sects for it to stop due to the transfer of diseases during the process. It is as much of a fringe ceremony as self-flagellation by a minority of Shia Muslims during the Day of Ashura. Obviously the vast majority of Muslims don't partake in it, and it would be just as wrong to presume as if it was a representation of Islam as believing the sucking of blood after circumcision by a minority of Jews is reflective of their religion. Why would you make Judaism illegal? Freedom of religion is one of the cornerstones of our democracy. What if we were to take away the right of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and others to practice their religion?

    The problem about holocaust denial is that it has no real historical basis, nor place in academia, it is severely flawed. The actual debate in academia over the number who died does exist, but it goes nowhere near the ridiculously low numbers quoted by revisionists. It is an insult to the memory of those who died, pursued by anti-Semites, Islamic Extremists and neo-Nazis. You say that ''holocaust is of course used as a political tool to garner sympathy for evil causes'', while I say the exact same about Holocaust denial. Ignoring what happened or denying it makes us forget that intolerance and hatred can lead to horrible things, such as genocide, and makes it more likely for us to repeat the mistakes of the past. It is a lesson for all mankind to not let hate overtake us, to not let intolerance turn into murder. The moral lessons from it go much further than as you interpret it, as a justification for Zionism.

    But I'm not going to get into the whole Zionist thing here, that is a topic for another time. All I'm going to say is that the Holocaust was not the driving force of Zionism, with many having made Aliyah before the Second World War. Also as you noted many Jews and Israelis themselves are anti-Zionist, while many Christians and Muslims are Zionists. It isn't a binary thing at all.

    Semite in the context I've been using is to refer to Jews of differing ethnic origins, regardless of it's historic or broader meanings. You call it 'stolen terminology', I just believe that words can evolve into different definitions. I might remind you that many Israeli's came from the Middle East, places like Yemen, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Over a third of Israelis are of Mizrahi origin, having been Jews from the Middle East, not including the Arab Israelis as well. Under this definition they are Semitic in your context of the word.

    I don't expect we will find much common ground in all this, but at the very least I hope I cleared the misconception that all Jews practice blood sucking after circumcision. You are clearly a staunch anti-Zionist, but don't let that expand into hatred of Jews or Judaism.
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    (Original post by ageshallnot)
    I know all this. I am trying to keep my points simple so even this person realises they are spouting lies.
    The person knows they're shouting lies.
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    (Original post by ageshallnot)
    I see nothing from the German government or the authorities at Auschwitz. So I assume you agree that icdjabtjk is incorrect in making the assertions I was asking him to substantiate?
    "Yes we can."

    Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1 million. No mention of that missing 3 million. [Foner's Spotlight article]



    According to figures provided by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, the overall number of victims of Auschwitz in the years 1940-1945 is estimated at between 1,100,000 and 1,500,000 people. The majority of them, and above all the mass transports of Jews who arrived beginning in 1942, died in the gas chambers. (Waclaw Dlugoborski and Franciszek Piper, Eds. Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp. The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 2000, 5 vols., 1799 pp., ISBN 83-85047-87-5)


    The came the revisions who challenged again that number and implicitly any number higher than that by saying that mathematics would dictate that given the number of crematoria, they would still be creating today with those numbers.

    Then came a new revised pro Holocaust story talking about packing gas chambers full to the brim with people and forcing the doors to close and creating 3 bodies at a time day and night.

    Of course the pictures including British military aerial photographs do not reflect this by showing smoking chimneys. They show maybe one smoking chimney.

    It's quite plausible that Auschwitz had dozens of cremator machines for war casualties and natural deaths. When the various camps were hit by enemy bombs, due to disease control requirements there would be a need to cremate the dead in parallel.

    Oh an I forgot to mention Zyklon B was an anti-typhus substance used for pest control.
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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    "Yes we can."

    Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1 million. No mention of that missing 3 million. [Foner's Spotlight article]



    According to figures provided by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, the overall number of victims of Auschwitz in the years 1940-1945 is estimated at between 1,100,000 and 1,500,000 people. The majority of them, and above all the mass transports of Jews who arrived beginning in 1942, died in the gas chambers. (Waclaw Dlugoborski and Franciszek Piper, Eds. Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp. The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 2000, 5 vols., 1799 pp., ISBN 83-85047-87-5)


    The came the revisions who challenged again that number and implicitly any number higher than that by saying that mathematics would dictate that given the number of crematoria, they would still be creating today with those numbers.

    Then came a new revised pro Holocaust story talking about packing gas chambers full to the brim with people and forcing the doors to close and creating 3 bodies at a time day and night.

    Of course the pictures including British military aerial photographs do not reflect this by showing smoking chimneys. They show maybe one smoking chimney.

    It's quite plausible that Auschwitz had dozens of cremator machines for war casualties and natural deaths. When the various camps were hit by enemy bombs, due to disease control requirements there would be a need to cremate the dead in parallel.

    Oh an I forgot to mention Zyklon B was an anti-typhus substance used for pest control.
    You're trolling now aren't you
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    You're trolling now aren't you
    The term trolling is sometimes used for its true meaning but on occasion it's used for Web 2.0 content which is outside of the realms of political correctness.


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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    The term trolling is sometimes used for its true meaning but on occasion it's used for Web 2.0 content which is outside of the realms of political correctness.


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    Do you believe that the Holocaust didn't happen?
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    Do you believe that the Holocaust didn't happen?
    To address such a question, one needs to define what is meant by Holocaust.

    If the question is do I believe that 6 to 18 million people were killed gas chambers, the answers no I don't believe that. I the question is do i believe that there were a large civilian body count in German controlled camps, the answer is I believe that.



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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    To address such a question, one needs to define what is meant by Holocaust.

    If the question is do I believe that 6 to 18 million people were killed gas chambers, the answers no I don't believe that. I the question is do i believe that there were a large civilian body count in German controlled camps, the answer is I believe that.



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    So what you are saying is that the vast collection of virtually everything recorded, documented, filmed, witnessed, experienced, evidenced, given as court testimony etc. is a lie or mere propaganda?
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    Hm.. What an interesting thread.

    Surely this would be like asking whether WW1 even occurred?

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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    To address such a question, one needs to define what is meant by Holocaust.

    If the question is do I believe that 6 to 18 million people were killed gas chambers, the answers no I don't believe that. I the question is do i believe that there were a large civilian body count in German controlled camps, the answer is I believe that.



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    Where did the missing 6 odd million go.

    Incidentally, gas chambers were only part of the holocaust.

    Holcaust deniers have attempted to throw doubt on the holocaust happening by creating doubt.

    At no time has any reputable historian ever suggested that every single Jew, homosexual, gypsy etc was killed in a gas chamber.

    Many were worked to death, a lot shot etc etc. the gas chamber was the most efficient method of extermination the nazis introduced.

    But the numbers were in the millions
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Where did the missing 6 odd million go.

    Incidentally, gas chambers were only part of the holocaust.

    Holcaust deniers have attempted to throw doubt on the holocaust happening by creating doubt.

    At no time has any reputable historian ever suggested that every single Jew, homosexual, gypsy etc was killed in a gas chamber.

    Many were worked to death, a lot shot etc etc. the gas chamber was the most efficient method of extermination the nazis introduced.

    But the numbers were in the millions
    What about the 6 million Jews plus 5.5 million non-Jews =11.5 million or the 18million some claim.

    How do you substantiate this mission 6/ 11.5/ 18m, where exactly are they missing from?


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    (Original post by uberteknik)
    So what you are saying is that the vast collection of virtually everything recorded, documented, filmed, witnessed, experienced, evidenced, given as court testimony etc. is a lie or mere propaganda?
    Not at all, I'm saying that most of what you refer to does not support the 11.5 million is gas chambers narrative. That is a narrative that some people have agreed on and attempted to get this evidence to underpin it, but you need to use leaps of faith, belief and far fetched concocted explanations to get the evidence to fit the narrative. Have a look at www.holotruth.com for more background on this.


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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    Not at all, I'm saying that most of what you refer to does not support the 11.5 million is gas chambers narrative. That is a narrative that some people have agreed on and attempted to get this evidence to underpin it, but you need to use leaps of faith, belief and far fetched concocted explanations to get the evidence to fit the narrative. Have a look at www.holotruth.com for more background on this.


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    Nobody other than tin foil hat holocaust deniers have claimed 11.5 million died in a gas chamber?

    Holocaust deniers will always selectively pick spurious comments made just after the war as evidence that the holocaust never happened.

    As research and evidence is conducted and analysed a better picture of what happened emerged over time.

    The holocaust denier, on an attempt to justify and tacitly agree with what happens attempts to throw doubt on te event.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Nobody other than tin foil hat holocaust deniers have claimed 11.5 million died in a gas chamber?

    Holocaust deniers will always selectively pick spurious comments made just after the war as evidence that the holocaust never happened.

    As research and evidence is conducted and analysed a better picture of what happened emerged over time.

    The holocaust denier, on an attempt to justify and tacitly agree with what happens attempts to throw doubt on te event.
    Here is one of these claims:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...shVictims.html

    They are claiming that 11 million people died in "The Holocaust" meaning deaths specifically of civilians than did not happen on the battlefield and happened in secret. That's about a quarter of the people killed in 5 years of enormous displays of firepower, never seen in history before and involving several continents.

    Where is the proof of this 11 million aside from things like forced "confessions" which U.S. military officers have admitted, or fake celebrity Holocaust victims like Irene Zisblatt who are just Hollywood celebrities.

    This 11 million story is a blatant exaggeration of the fact that the Germans had labour camps.


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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    Here is one of these claims:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...shVictims.html

    They are claiming that 11 million people died in "The Holocaust" meaning deaths specifically of civilians than did not happen on the battlefield and happened in secret. That's about a quarter of the people killed in 5 years of enormous displays of firepower, never seen in history before and involving several continents.

    Where is the proof of this 11 million aside from things like forced "confessions" which U.S. military officers have admitted, or fake celebrity Holocaust victims like Irene Zisblatt who are just Hollywood celebrities.

    This 11 million story is a blatant exaggeration of the fact that the Germans had labour camps.


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    They've claimed 11 million were killed . There's obviously some dispute as to what the definition is of the holocaust. What youre doing is attempting to exploit different classifications.

    The sub set of humanity that become fascinated with questioning the numbers concern me greatly.
    Are you convinced it's huge conspiracy theory? Or do you tacitly agree with the final solution?
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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)
    "Yes we can."

    Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1 million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least). Quietly, because of revisionist findings, the official figure was lowered to 1.1 million. No mention of that missing 3 million. [Foner's Spotlight article]
    Except plenty of people gave significantly lower estimates before 1992; Reitlinger and Hilberg, as I've mentioned, but also Lucy Dawidowicz, George Wellers, Ihor Kamenetsky, the Encyclopedia Judaica, Aharon Weiss, and I could go on. The highest estimate any of those made was 2.5 million (Kamenetsky).

    Also, what about Hoess' testimony in which he says Eichmann gave an estimate of around 2.5 million (a number Hoess himself said he considered too high)? If Hoess was coerced into saying such, as I expect you'll claim, why didn't they coerce him into affirming the 4 million figure? Why did he instead give a significantly lower number which he still claimed was too high?


    The came the revisions who challenged again that number and implicitly any number higher than that by saying that mathematics would dictate that given the number of crematoria, they would still be creating today with those numbers.
    Don't know who claims this. Even the IHR puts the number the crematoria could have incinerated in the time available at over 400,000 (bear in mind we're only talking Auschwitz here - the other extermination camps did not have crematoria).

    Actually, the Auschwitz crematoria had the theoretical capacity to cremate far more bodies than they actually did. Deniers' claims otherwise generally rest on considerable overestimates of both:

    i) how much maintenance the crematoria needed.
    ii) how long it took the bodies to burn

    Both are generally based on fallaciously assuming that industrial furnaces designed to dispose of human remains en masse were more or less the same as commercial ones designed to provide families of a deceased person with something of particular sentimental value.

    Oh an I forgot to mention Zyklon B was an anti-typhus substance used for pest control.
    So what?

    Machetes are agricultural tools used to cut down plants. Does that disprove the fact that they were used to slaughter people en masse in Rwanda?
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    (Original post by CycleofSpin)

    If the question is do I believe that 6 to 18 million people were killed gas chambers
    Which it isn't. No-one claims everyone who died in the Holocaust, however defined (i.e. whether it just includes Jews, or all killed by Nazi killing policies), was killed in the gas chambers. That number is more like 3 million. 2.5 million if you want to be really pedantic and point out that Chelmno and Maly Trostinets used vans rather than chambers for gassings.
 
 
 

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