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" support equality, but the feminists want more rights than men" watch

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    (Original post by Reluire)
    You might wanted to start laughing out loud then. Privilege entails rights and abilities not available to all.

    Take a look at the below and let me know if you still don't think women are privileged in some ways that men aren't.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    No, no, no, you're doing this all wrong.



    Also on a side note it's pretty funny how much of a typical Tumblr feminist ivy is. She is the embodiment of the stereotype. She needs to top it off with a cherry by telling us how she's doing gender studies, that reverse sexism isn't real and that she's lesbian/queer, after all it is the fashionable thing nowadays to be the victim :lol:
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    (Original post by ivyheart)
    i'd say LOL and ask you if you understand the concept of privilege.
    I'd [email protected] from the sidelines and get my phone out for some youtube views.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Divorce courts favour women overwhemingly.

    Women can abort a child without consequences while men just have to shut up and pay for it. Sometimes even if the child isn't theirs.

    Sentencing laws favour women and give them smaller sentences on average.

    Men can't be legally raped by a women in the UK. It only counts as sexual assault.

    Various affirmative action programmes.

    Feminist organisations getting tax-payer funding.

    Shelters for domestic violence victims (which get taxpayer funding) mostly only cater to women and men can't use them.

    Loads and loads of single mothers living lifes almost entirely funded by the taxpayer.

    There's probably more too.


    I would like to see women treated better in some other countries but I don't agree with feminism as I can't accept it's fundamental logic (i.e. that men and women are essentially the same and equally capable in most things).
    I agree that there is discrimination against men in many cases and unfortunately, many times, it's not taken as seriously as it should. For example, it's unfair men not having the same chance to use shelters for domestic violence (if that's indeed true).

    Also, i do believe that the law regarding men should change, a case of male rape isn't less important because of the sex or/and the gender of the victim and the rapist.

    Why do you think feminist organisations getting tax-payer funding is a bad thing?

    Generally speaking, i'd argue that discrimination against women is definitely a much more common phenomenon.

    I consider myself a feminist and do not believe men and women are the same. I believe, that despite our differences, we should all be regarded equally in all the aspects of our lives The differences between us are to be celebrated and bring us closer, not divide us.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Generally speaking, i'd argue that discrimination against women is definitely a much more common phenomenon.
    Why? On what basis other than personal bias? Because I for one haven't got the faintest clue which is gender is discriminated against more commonly; are there studies for this sort of thing?
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    (Original post by anastas)
    I agree that there is discrimination against men in many cases and unfortunately, many times, it's not taken as seriously as it should. For example, it's unfair men not having the same chance to use shelters for domestic violence (if that's indeed true).

    Also, i do believe that the law regarding men should change, a case of male rape isn't less important because of the sex or/and the gender of the victim and the rapist.

    Why do you think feminist organisations getting tax-payer funding is a bad thing?

    Generally speaking, i'd argue that discrimination against women is definitely a much more common phenomenon.

    I consider myself a feminist and do not believe men and women are the same. I believe, that despite our differences, we should all be regarded equally in all the aspects of our lives The differences between us are to be celebrated and bring us closer, not divide us.
    To add to his list you might want to consider how males are far more likely to become mentally ill and/or addicted to drugs. How they have lower life expectancies and don't do as well in the education system. How about how they are much more likely to commit suicide? Nobody mentioned the huge problem that is false-positives within rape cases. Can you imagine how badly it ****s up your life to be accused of being a rapist when you never done such a thing?

    Do you mind if I get as petty as some feminists do with regards to body image? Why is the stereotypical female perfect body achievable solely through starvation and very very mild and very very easy exercise whereas the perfect male body is fundamentally impossible to acquire for the vast majority of males (they can't get those abs alongside big biceps without unhealthily low levels of body fat and they can't help their height) and even if they can achieve it it is tremendously harder than the perfect female body as it requires far more intense workouts and far greater diet control and understanding?
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    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    Why? On what basis other than personal bias? Because I for one haven't got the faintest clue which is gender is discriminated against more commonly; are there studies for this sort of thing?
    I try to not be biased in any point of view i hold because i appreciate critical thinking, arguments to back up my opinion and open-mindness.

    I think of women being in a more disadvantaged position than men in a global context, not talking about one country or period of time only. Looking over the past centuries, the role of women in society was limited to raising children and staying in the household. It all starts from very early on. For example, in ancient Greece (which is known for the invention of democracy among others) women (along with slaves) didn't have the right to vote, watch athletics, take part in political discussions. Domestic violence is more common with women too.
    My personal opinion is that women have larger percentages of getting assaulted because they lack the physical stength to defend themselves and because they can be seen as the weaker sex.
    I don't think there's any reason to comment on the role of women in many other countries. The post of Username555 is very well structured.

    I'm sorry if i came off as biased or man hating, i never meant to. I do believe that there is discrimination against all sexes and genders but according to my view (which is based on learning about women's position over the centuries all over the world), women have been more disadvantaged than men.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Why do you think feminist organisations getting tax-payer funding is a bad thing?
    There aren't many things that I want to be taxpayer funded. The promotion of ideologies that I disagree with is definitely not on that list.

    (Original post by anastas)
    Generally speaking, i'd argue that discrimination against women is definitely a much more common phenomenon.
    You are talking about "discrimination" in the sense of social attitudes or perceptions held by people (which affects men and women both). I'm referring to legal rights and where tax money goes.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Why do you think feminist organisations getting tax-payer funding is a bad thing?
    Hmmm, why is it a bad thing for tax payers to fund a politcally driven ideology which is considered extremist, illogical and hateful by many people?
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    (Original post by anastas)
    I try to not be biased in any point of view i hold because i appreciate critical thinking, arguments to back up my opinion and open-mindness.

    I think of women being in a more disadvantaged position than men in a global context, not talking about one country or period of time only. Looking over the past centuries, the role of women in society was limited to raising children and staying in the household. It all starts from very early on. For example, in ancient Greece (which is known for the invention of democracy among others) women (along with slaves) didn't have the right to vote, watch athletics, take part in political discussions. Domestic violence is more common with women too.
    My personal opinion is that women have larger percentages of getting assaulted because they lack the physical stength to defend themselves and because they can be seen as the weaker sex.
    I don't think there's any reason to comment on the role of women in many other countries. The post of Username555 is very well structured.

    I'm sorry if i came off as biased or man hating, i never meant to. I do believe that there is discrimination against all sexes and genders but according to my view (which is based on learning about women's position over the centuries all over the world), women have been more disadvantaged than men.
    Historically and outside of the 'First World' sure. Yet the claims of many British feminists don't have such a narrow scope - they fully intend for them to apply for whatever reason to British women too. Obviously it's not a contest of "whose worse off" but I do struggle to see how it is so obvious that we live in a patriarchy that disadvantages women over men so much...

    We being pretty much anywhere in the 'first world'.

    Women may get assaulted a lot more - but whose role is it to physically defend the woman from such things? Granted, that's petty, but the point is that when I was in high school, as a male, in a rough high school, I had to fight people to get popularity, there was no alternative, it's that or get bullied. The females in my high school rarely had that problem. Only the ones at the very top of the social hierachy fought one another physically and it wasn't like if they didn't they'de get bullied like the males.

    I think there are serious problems that face both genders and I don't think the "I'm worse off" debate is worthwhile. However, sometimes I feel the need to point out the ways in which men are worse off as they are much more overt to me than the ways in which females are and it's not like I'm looking for that **** - I used to refer to myself as a feminist and study sociology extensively - I've read all that feminist academia.

    British women saying that men are so privileged when they evidently aren't so privileged just doesn't help bring about equality, it actually makes women privileged. We should be saying that both men and women have distinct and unique issues that need addressing to increase their quality of life.
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    equality doesn't mean justice.
    Women and men are NOT the same and should be treated differently, yet adequate to their nature etc.
    Like, even anatomically we are different, lots of studies show that our brains proccess information in other way…how can we be treated equally then?
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    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    To add to his list you might want to consider how males are far more likely to become mentally ill and/or addicted to drugs. How they have lower life expectancies and don't do as well in the education system. How about how they are much more likely to commit suicide? Nobody mentioned the huge problem that is false-positives within rape cases. Can you imagine how badly it ****s up your life to be accused of being a rapist when you never done such a thing?

    Do you mind if I get as petty as some feminists do with regards to body image? Why is the stereotypical female perfect body achievable solely through starvation and very very mild and very very easy exercise whereas the perfect male body is fundamentally impossible to acquire for the vast majority of males (they can't get those abs alongside big biceps without unhealthily low levels of body fat and they can't help their height) and even if they can achieve it it is tremendously harder than the perfect female body as it requires far more intense workouts and far greater diet control and understanding?
    Thank you for your comment and for adding other cases where discrimination against men should be addressed. I agree with the points you've mentioned.

    If i'm not wrong, the reason men have lower life expectancies is because they tend to do more manual jobs which are more physically exhausting. Don't take my word for it but i think this is what has been shown in studies.

    Definitely agree with what you're saying about men being falsely accused of rape. It is indeed an awful thing and the psychological consequences of a man being falsely accused are horrible beyond words.

    As for the ideal body, this isn't something that can be helped. For example, as you say women can achieve the so called '' ideal body '' through little effort while men need a lot more effort, but this is not women's fault. Men's and women's bodies are designed differently.
    From my point of view, the ideal body is a very stupid concept anyway and puts so much pressure on people. This is sad for everyone.

    What i'm trying to say is that i'm aware of how men can be disadvantaged but i'm also aware of how women can be disadvantaged. I'm sincerely sorry for any pressure/discrimination you may have been through because of society's expectations of how men should be.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    There aren't many things that I want to be taxpayer funded. The promotion of ideologies that I disagree with is definitely not on that list.


    You are talking about "discrimination" in the sense of social attitudes or perceptions held by people (which affects men and women both). I'm referring to legal rights and where tax money goes.
    I'm sorry, i hadn't understood well. I agree that men shouldn't be faced differently than women in the legal context.
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    (Original post by Feels)
    Hmmm, why is it a bad thing for tax payers to fund a politcally driven ideology which is considered extremist, illogical and hateful by many people?
    I do believe that sometimes the word feminism is used without people who use it knowing what it's referring to. Sometimes feminists are being associated with hating men, believing they're superior than them, wanting to be treated in a special way. I don't know the exact nature of the organisations but if they support these things, then rightfully so people get upset and are against it. If however, they are about this (this is the summary of feminism by Wikipedia with which i agree)

    Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.

    then what is negative about it?
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    (Original post by ivyheart)
    oh wow... i wish i was under the absurd impression that life is fair and we have equal rights, but unfortunately my head isn't buried underneath the sand. wake up and smell the male privilege, son. i bid you good day.
    tbh, I really dislike the concept of 'privilege' really. Most of the time it detracts from the main issue, and most of the time when people use it, they fail to take into account several factors a person may have which may or may not give them 'privilege points'.

    Hell, most privilege conversations end up like this. As men, White people, Cisgendered people aren't a homogenous group, it becomes a rather silly concept to rely on.

    Read the comments above, for reference. It's become a discussion of 'Well, men aren't THAT privileged because SOME men are treated worse in this way' and so on. Anyone of any group are subject to some situational privilege, which other groups would be hard pressed to find.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    I do believe that sometimes the word feminism is used without people who use it knowing what it's referring to. Sometimes feminists are being associated with hating men, believing they're superior than them, wanting to be treated in a special way. I don't know the exact nature of the organisations but if they support these things, then rightfully so people get upset and are against it. If however, they are about this (this is the summary of feminism by Wikipedia with which i agree)



    then what is negative about it?
    Nobody cares what the official defnition was from 50 years ago, in practise its completley different.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Thank you for your comment and for adding other cases where discrimination against men should be addressed. I agree with the points you've mentioned.

    If i'm not wrong, the reason men have lower life expectancies is because they tend to do more manual jobs which are more physically exhausting. Don't take my word for it but i think this is what has been shown in studies.

    Definitely agree with what you're saying about men being falsely accused of rape. It is indeed an awful thing and the psychological consequences of a man being falsely accused are horrible beyond words.

    As for the ideal body, this isn't something that can be helped. For example, as you say women can achieve the so called '' ideal body '' through little effort while men need a lot more effort, but this is not women's fault. Men's and women's bodies are designed differently.
    From my point of view, the ideal body is a very stupid concept anyway and puts so much pressure on people. This is sad for everyone.

    What i'm trying to say is that i'm aware of how men can be disadvantaged but i'm also aware of how women can be disadvantaged. I'm sincerely sorry for any pressure/discrimination you may have been through because of society's expectations of how men should be.
    Thank you for your appreciation and I certainly wouldn't ever have the gall myself to say to a woman that they have female privilege. How can I know? I don't know what the average woman's life is like in the UK compared to the average males since I don't know everyone in the UK... Nor are there "privilege studies".

    I think that's definitely an issue but I don't think that's the half of it - lots of physical work is actually good exercise and not that bad you and industrial accidents aren't so common as to create a nearly 4 year discrepancy in life expectancy.

    Males have much more mental health issues due to the way society tells them to bottle everything up and never talk intimately about anything to friends. Beer culture in a lot of men obviously doesn't help their health, but that's not too influential either since most men don't spend all day in bars anymore anyway. The other things I think are just that men in general are taught not to care as much about their body - beer bellies are accepted in men but not on women. Women might say that's good, but I say it is not! It means that men accept being fat as being part of aging when they should be exercising and sorting out their diet to solve that!

    Men also visit their GP far less often, they wait longer after seeing symptoms of illnesses before they go anywhere - they are less likely to seek treatment for any illnesses they know they have. These are all likely fall-offs of them trying to aspire to masculinity - they are meant to be tough and independent, they don't need no doctors help to aid their health and even if it isn't that I just think men in general care less about their health because society says they shouldn't take great care of their body like women.

    Plus men take more risks, I don't know for sure but I bet men are much more likely to die in car accidents and no doubt many other silly risk-taking things like that. Again, though that's something that society encourages with the way it tells men to behave.

    Note I am never blaming females for this. It's society in general. Yet the feminist will blame men for the gender pay-gap in pediatric jobs despite most employers in the pediatric industry being female themselves... It's mis-guided ideology and it's why I no longer call myself a feminist.

    Oh and ideal bodies are stupid concepts but unfortunately society pressures males and females into achieving both. I suppose males should be grateful they don't have to spend ages on make-up and maintaining long hair each day though.
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    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    Historically and outside of the 'First World' sure. Yet the claims of many British feminists don't have such a narrow scope - they fully intend for them to apply for whatever reason to British women too. Obviously it's not a contest of "whose worse off" but I do struggle to see how it is so obvious that we live in a patriarchy that disadvantages women over men so much...

    We being pretty much anywhere in the 'first world'.

    Women may get assaulted a lot more - but whose role is it to physically defend the woman from such things? Granted, that's petty, but the point is that when I was in high school, as a male, in a rough high school, I had to fight people to get popularity, there was no alternative, it's that or get bullied. The females in my high school rarely had that problem. Only the ones at the very top of the social hierachy fought one another physically and it wasn't like if they didn't they'de get bullied like the males.

    I think there are serious problems that face both genders and I don't think the "I'm worse off" debate is worthwhile. However, sometimes I feel the need to point out the ways in which men are worse off as they are much more overt to me than the ways in which females are and it's not like I'm looking for that **** - I used to refer to myself as a feminist and study sociology extensively - I've read all that feminist academia.

    British women saying that men are so privileged when they evidently aren't so privileged just doesn't help bring about equality, it actually makes women privileged. We should be saying that both men and women have distinct and unique issues that need addressing to increase their quality of life.
    I'm so so sorry for your experience in high school. Honestly, it makes me very sad that you had to go through this. No man should ever be under pressure to act like this, the societal pressure that exists, is heartbreaking.

    In an ideal world, there would be no pressure for any sex and gender to act a certain way and there would not be discrimination in any context.
    I get what you mean though, i'm not British but i've read a couple of things about modern day British feminists and in many cases, i don't agree with many of the things they do either. It seems that the essence and core of feminism can sometimes get altered in a negative way, hence the negative opinion many people hold of feminism. I realise where they're coming from.

    Yes, i think there are cases where men are worse off and cases where women are worse off.

    If you don't mind me asking, is it the way some British women think of feminism and how feminism has changed over the years, that has made you change your mind and not call yourself a feminist anymore?

    Agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.
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    (Original post by Feels)
    Nobody cares what the official defnition was from 50 years ago, in practise its completley different.
    Are you referring to feminism in 21st centure Britain or in a global context? I'm sorry, it's just that i'm not British and try to understand more about how feminism is being practiced in the UK.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    I'm so so sorry for your experience in high school. Honestly, it makes me very sad that you had to go through this. No man should ever be under pressure to act like this, the societal pressure that exists, is heartbreaking.

    In an ideal world, there would be no pressure for any sex and gender to act a certain way and there would not be discrimination in any context.
    I get what you mean though, i'm not British but i've read a couple of things about modern day British feminists and in many cases, i don't agree with many of the things they do either. It seems that the essence and core of feminism can sometimes get altered in a negative way, hence the negative opinion many people hold of feminism. I realise where they're coming from.

    Yes, i think there are cases where men are worse off and cases where women are worse off.

    If you don't mind me asking, is it the way some British women think of feminism and how feminism has changed over the years, that has made you change your mind and not call yourself a feminist anymore?

    Agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.
    Hey, I survived to get to university for whatever that's worth and I definitely don't do that anymore (outside of the ring/cage anyway), but thanks

    What's quite disheartening though is that because this was how I grew up as a youth I thought this was typical behaviour all across the country! Of course it isn't and I learnt that only when I got to university and met all the posh lads from the private schools and how their high schools were so much more pleasant hehe. But as a child you just assume that your surroundings are normal - that's one of the things that makes domestic violence so damn bad. It makes your kids think men and women should beat one another up in the household, or that they should beat up the kids and so on. It perpetuates the evil that it itself is.

    It is often something that radical feminists themselves argue for, but I agree with it and that it that there should be no gender in the first place. The way we treat people based on their biological sex should be the same for all - we shouldn't assume certain sexes have different preferences or roles to play in society. We really don't need gender. Why must boys get the blue clothing and girls the pink clothing? Why not just get them the clothing that looks the best on them ( XD ) and let them decide for themselves once they are old enough to do so?

    It is to do with how the British women that I've talked to about these issues perceive them and talk about them. The pay-gap phenomena is obviously empirically real - there is a pay gap based on gender. That is, women get paid less in the same job role per year than men. However, to say that this is because employers discriminate against women because they're sexist does nothing to solve the real issue at hand because it is a priori, obviously not true. If it was then no women would ever find themselves voluntarily unemployed if companies could get away with paying an equally skilled worker 20% less because they lack a penis... Yet that is not how it works in society (it's illegal for a start, which is ironic considering law-makers themselves are mostly male; or maybe not, those males don't want to lose all their jobs to women which is why those anti-discriminatory laws exist [har-har]). Clearly there are underlying factors that cause the gap in the gender pay. I don't know them all, but there have been many studies that control for lots of different variables and end up getting the wage gap down from 20% to 2%. The key thing is to identify those factors and then deal with them in such a way that the pay gap is eliminated and we are left with a meritocracy.

    Yet when I ask a British feminist what causes the wage gap they say "men discriminating against women". There is just no evidence that that is true and the worst thing of all is that if it isn't true then those feminists are doing nothing at all to solve the real underlying issue that is actually causing it!

    And then you have people like Ivyheart who will insist, without any empirical evidence to back up such claims, that women have it far harder in society and that males should constantly appreciate their privilege. Which, I just can't see, not in Britain anyway. I can see it elsewhere, but not here. So I just think it is inappropriately divisive and unproductive. I think there are better ways to solving the problems that face both genders that don't mandate me to subscribe to similar views to overt extremists.
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    (Original post by TorpidPhil)
    Thank you for your appreciation and I certainly wouldn't ever have the gall myself to say to a woman that they have female privilege. How can I know? I don't know what the average woman's life is like in the UK compared to the average males since I don't know everyone in the UK... Nor are there "privilege studies".

    I think that's definitely an issue but I don't think that's the half of it - lots of physical work is actually good exercise and not that bad you and industrial accidents aren't so common as to create a nearly 4 year discrepancy in life expectancy.

    Males have much more mental health issues due to the way society tells them to bottle everything up and never talk intimately about anything to friends. Beer culture in a lot of men obviously doesn't help their health, but that's not too influential either since most men don't spend all day in bars anymore anyway. The other things I think are just that men in general are taught not to care as much about their body - beer bellies are accepted in men but not on women. Women might say that's good, but I say it is not! It means that men accept being fat as being part of aging when they should be exercising and sorting out their diet to solve that!

    Men also visit their GP far less often, they wait longer after seeing symptoms of illnesses before they go anywhere - they are less likely to seek treatment for any illnesses they know they have. These are all likely fall-offs of them trying to aspire to masculinity - they are meant to be tough and independent, they don't need no doctors help to aid their health and even if it isn't that I just think men in general care less about their health because society says they shouldn't take great care of their body like women.

    Plus men take more risks, I don't know for sure but I bet men are much more likely to die in car accidents and no doubt many other silly risk-taking things like that. Again, though that's something that society encourages with the way it tells men to behave.

    Note I am never blaming females for this. It's society in general. Yet the feminist will blame men for the gender pay-gap in pediatric jobs despite most employers in the pediatric industry being female themselves... It's mis-guided ideology and it's why I no longer call myself a feminist.

    Oh and ideal bodies are stupid concepts but unfortunately society pressures males and females into achieving both. I suppose males should be grateful they don't have to spend ages on make-up and maintaining long hair each day though.
    Thank you for your post. I like the fact that you're open to disussion and it's so nice because through our discussion we see there's nothing to divide

    Society telling men they're supposed to hide their feelings and not being open about expressing themselves is infuriating and sad at the same time. It worries me, it's like some people think that men shouldn't for example cry or show emotionality. I mean, how absurd is that?
    I think there is a huge problem in society expecting men not having moments where they are weak and just need help, a hug and someone to be there for them. How some people think that when a man needs help is unmasculine or something they should feel embarassed about or ashamed of is something beyond me.

    Would you say that some feminists in the UK overlook and neglect issues men face? And this is why some people think negatively of feminism?

    Haha yeah guess you're right about the last one
 
 
 
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