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B861 - Sunday Trading Act (Repeal) Bill 2015 watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I would argue to the contrary, it is the small businesses that are allowed to be open, but they aren't because they cannot afford to while the large businesses can afford to staff small stores off the back of their larger ones, or I suppose really I should say that they can weather potential unreliability in Sunday trading. In terms of helping the smaller businesses I would say that the better solution would be to repeal whatever part of whatever act it is that deals with time and a half on Sundays.
    I don't have any reliable data to go from, so this is an assumption, but I would guess that small shops would currently be busier on a Sunday than during Monday to Friday. Anyone with a week job is only going to go into town centers for shopping during the weekends. If a store can't afford to open during a weekend day, I'd be amazed if they were making enough profit to open on a week day.

    I don't quite understand what you mean by 'time and a half on Sundays', could you clarify what that signifies?
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    (Original post by Actaeon)
    I don't quite understand what you mean by 'time and a half on Sundays', could you clarify what that signifies?
    People get paid 50% extra
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    There is a lot of bs that I see on this thread.

    1) This bill doesn't stop shops from closing early on a Sunday

    2) Plenty people would like to shop on a Sunday

    3) Sunday trading laws don't protect business, they have nothing to do with that, sunday trading laws exist because people are supposed to go to church on a Sunday

    Aye!
    Do you want to pull up any data from the 8 weeks where the act was temporarily ignored for the Olympics to support that point? I was working Sundays at the time in Tesco and there weren't many people coming in later on and I'm fairly sure that it was largely offset by fewer people coming in during the day, i.e. people would just shop later.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Do you want to pull up any data from the 8 weeks where the act was temporarily ignored for the Olympics to support that point? I was working Sundays at the time in Tesco and there weren't many people coming in later on and I'm fairly sure that it was largely offset by fewer people coming in during the day, i.e. people would just shop later.
    People would like to shop on a Sunday as much as they'd like to shop any other day of the week. Anyone who says that given the opportunity to be able to shop on a sunday as equally as any other day of the week, they wouldn't take it is a liar or a strict Christian, and I don't want to see my liberty to shop taken away by someone's belief that don't effect me at all.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    People get paid 50% extra
    Ah, thanks. Isn't that's a matter entirely decided by the contracts between businesses and workers though? I'm not aware of any leglisation that says anything about making it compulsory.
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    (Original post by Actaeon)
    I don't have any reliable data to go from, so this is an assumption, but I would guess that small shops would currently be busier on a Sunday than during Monday to Friday. Anyone with a week job is only going to go into town centers for shopping during the weekends. If a store can't afford to open during a weekend day, I'd be amazed if they were making enough profit to open on a week day.

    I don't quite understand what you mean by 'time and a half on Sundays', could you clarify what that signifies?
    But if everybody is going in during the day and/or Saturdays and not much early and late on Sundays then it is not necessarily worth being open much longer on Sundays, in much the same way that most shops close in the evening and open in the morning because the business overnight will be too low to be worth the cost.

    And time and a half being, as said above, paying 50% more, and I am pretty sure that it is enshrined in law since people actually do it.
    Oh, interestingly there is no legal obligation, but I wonder how much it comes down to big business that can afford it doing it to try to kill smaller businesses that may not be able to compete.

    I would also like to point out to everybody that this should soon be a devolved matter, and interestingly all the lefties seem to be opposing it declaring it bad for small businesses.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    People would like to shop on a Sunday as much as they'd like to shop any other day of the week. Anyone who says that given the opportunity to be able to shop on a sunday as equally as any other day of the week, they wouldn't take it is a liar or a strict Christian, and I don't want to see my liberty to shop taken away by someone's belief that don't effect me at all.
    Then present the data from the Olympics relaxation to suggest so.
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    (Original post by Actaeon)
    . If a store can't afford to open during a weekend day, I'd be amazed if they were making enough profit to open on a week day.
    (Original post by Actaeon)
    Ah, thanks. Isn't that's a matter entirely decided by the contracts between businesses and workers though? I'm not aware of any leglisation that says anything about making it compulsory.
    I'm not too sure in terms of legislation or whatever, but you pretty much covered it nonetheless.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Then present the data from the Olympics relaxation to suggest so.
    The Olympics would clearly be an anomaly anyway.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    The Olympics would clearly be an anomaly anyway.
    I take this to mean that either you haven't looked for the data fearing it would go against your point, or have looked at the data and it doesn't back up your argument.
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    Okay, Scotland already have this relaxation, so I guess we should be looking at what it did in Scotland, otherwise, this is also an interesting piece:
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-9

    Although it does also suggest that most of the benefits from 24/7 opening could be gained by simply extending the trading hours rather than making them unlimited.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I take this to mean that either you haven't looked for the data fearing it would go against your point, or have looked at the data and it doesn't back up your argument.
    No I haven't looked at the data, nor am I sure if there is anything specific. But here's the thing.

    1) Sunday trading laws have existed for a while, people have gotten used to the current way of things

    2) Just because people are used to something, that doesn't mean it can't be changed

    3) There is no reason not to repeal the Sunday Trading Laws, they were brought about for religious reasons that no longer hold any ground

    4) The bill doesn't force shops to stay open!

    5) I want to be able to go to a shop whenever I like, I don't need the state to tell me when I can and can't pop to the shop.

    6) Now, if it doesn't make sense for a shop to be open at a certain point then they'd stay closed, the state needn't have a say.

    7) Repeating myself now, but you seem to be ignoring the point
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    No I haven't looked at the data, nor am I sure if there is anything specific. But here's the thing.

    1) Sunday trading laws have existed for a while, people have gotten used to the current way of things

    2) Just because people are used to something, that doesn't mean it can't be changed

    3) There is no reason not to repeal the Sunday Trading Laws, they were brought about for religious reasons that no longer hold any ground
    "The arguments against the change are many. As footfall is low on Sundays, it might be more sensible to coordinate opening hours between shops, so that customers are not spread too thinly across the day. Without coordination, there might be a race to longer hours, with everyone losing out. Restrictions on opening hours are also a way to coordinate people’s free time, which might have social benefits. The Association for Convenience Stores (ACS), an industry lobby group, has argued that the change in law will hurt smaller shops' business. Over the Olympics the government temporarily relaxed Sunday restrictions, which the ACS argues led to a slump in retail sales in July and August 2012 of 0.2%. It is not clear why giving large shops the opportunity to open for longer would decrease sales, however;"
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    "The arguments against the change are many. As footfall is low on Sundays, it might be more sensible to coordinate opening hours between shops, so that customers are not spread too thinly across the day. Without coordination, there might be a race to longer hours, with everyone losing out. Restrictions on opening hours are also a way to coordinate people’s free time, which might have social benefits. The Association for Convenience Stores (ACS), an industry lobby group, has argued that the change in law will hurt smaller shops' business. Over the Olympics the government temporarily relaxed Sunday restrictions, which the ACS argues led to a slump in retail sales in July and August 2012 of 0.2%. It is not clear why giving large shops the opportunity to open for longer would decrease sales, however;"
    4) The bill doesn't force shops to stay open!

    5) I want to be able to go to a shop whenever I like, I don't need the state to tell me when I can and can't pop to the shop.

    6) Now, if it doesn't make sense for a shop to be open at a certain point then they'd stay closed, the state needn't have a say.

    7) Repeating myself now, but you seem to be ignoring the point
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    Nay - Sunday should be a day that as many people as possible get to spend with their family or at any rate doing something they enjoy, and this bill would discourage that from happening.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    4) The bill doesn't force shops to stay open!

    5) I want to be able to go to a shop whenever I like, I don't need the state to tell me when I can and can't pop to the shop.

    6) Now, if it doesn't make sense for a shop to be open at a certain point then they'd stay closed, the state needn't have a say.

    7) Repeating myself now, but you seem to be ignoring the point
    "When retailers can operate online around the clock and Sunday remains a day of rest for much of the population,"
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    (Original post by Tahret)
    Nay. Small stores will struggle to stay open all week round, damaging small business. Also, shorter trading hours on Sundays creates a culture where Sundays are used for free time, which both helps the leisure industry and society as a whole.
    They won't. Small shops can already open for longer and indeed all of the ones in my very rural area already do so. I'm aware that's anecdotal but they are well equipped to continue to do this if they want. Even if we assume you're right and that they didn't have the capacity to open at these hours, they wouldn't be losing any business because they aren't even open for business This just gives people more freedom to shop if those shops choose to open at those times. There will be some positive economic impact too with people spending more, and I don't see how that could ever be considered a bad thing.

    On your second point, that's really only for people in retail, which is not the entire UK workforce. The hospitality industry has been in this position for years, my girlfriend regularly works 12 hour shifts so I don't see why we need to give any specific industry extra protections for no apparent reason. Furthermore, there are many other workers who already get weekends off and any impact on the leisure industry is going to be absolutely minimal because their ability to 'rest' is not impacted at all. If anything the knowledge that Sunday no longer represents a complete economic shutdown in town centres may encourage people to more regularly leave their homes on the Sunday and be more likely to contribute to leisure businesses within the same vicinity. Hell, I consider shopping a sociable and leisurable activity in itself anyway and many others feel the same. And as Joe says, there is already inbuilt protection for employees in terms of exploitative hours that could otherwise arise from these sorts of measures.

    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I see the 'New Liberals' have started to mark out their ideological territory - supplementing this with a new and improved bill format which I imagine will be kept constant throughout. Then mark of Jarred is present.Some notes would be appreciated to help me understand the arguments for this measure. Without these I am inclined to agree with what the Hon. Tahrethas said.
    Joe wrote the bill and all I did is give it a shiny capitalised serif title, but thanks anyway Apologies for the lack of notes, we'll include some for future readings. A lot of my own support for it is pretty much explained above, but extending on from that, this is really about modernisation. At the end of the day, these laws are completely arbitrary and exist only to placate the Church. I think we need to move beyond the days where religion actively informs our politics and just get rid of these dated traditions.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Nay - Sunday should be a day that as many people as possible get to spend with their family or at any rate doing something they enjoy, and this bill would discourage that from happening.
    No it wouldn't. It'd just give the option for people to pop to the shops. The state shouldnt have any say in what day I decide to shop.

    Many people in other industries work on Sundays. Why not as much in retail?

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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Nay - Sunday should be a day that as many people as possible get to spend with their family or at any rate doing something they enjoy, and this bill would discourage that from happening.
    This bill does nothing of the sort. Sunday trading laws exist because, and only because, people are supposed to go to church on a Sunday
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Nay - Sunday should be a day that as many people as possible get to spend with their family or at any rate doing something they enjoy, and this bill would discourage that from happening.
    I worked 12 hours Friday, 10 hours Saturday and another 12 hours Sunday, it didn't stop me seeing my family during the week, doing the hobbies that I have or any other aspect of my time that I'm 'not supposed' to be at work. The weekend is merely just two more days in a 7 day week.
 
 
 
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