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If there was any doubt as to the left wing's real motives behind their Israel hatred. watch

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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    Evidence please. Can you provide a single example of a pro-Israel advocate saying that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic?

    You people are constantly whining that this is what you are unfairly being accused of; it shouldn't be hard to find evidence of a few mainstream pro-Israel advocates asserting that all criticism of the Israeli government is inherently anti-semitic
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-C...s-anti-Semitic

    Who knew google could be so handy?
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    (Original post by LemonFish)
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-C...s-anti-Semitic

    Who knew google could be so handy?
    I asked for a mainstream pro-Israel advocate. You won't be able to find one. The fact that the only person you could find to make that point is a fringe right-winger really proves my point
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    (Original post by LemonFish)
    Who
    Are anti-Israel critics capable of being anti-semitic?
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    Are anti-Israel critics capable of being anti-semitic?
    Are we about to engage in a sarcastic/rhetorical question fencing match?

    I have no doubt you are right to be honest, we won't find any mainstreamers who do say anything of the sort. It tends to be the keyboard warriors who lash out like that, and it is pretty annoying. If I hypothetically disagreed with Iran's (now abandoned) policy on nuclear research noone would claim I was islamophobic. Why should I be labelled anti-semitic for criticising Israeli policy?
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    (Original post by LemonFish)
    Are we about to engage in a sarcastic/rhetorical question fencing match?

    I have no doubt you are right to be honest, we won't find any mainstreamers who do say anything of the sort. It tends to be the keyboard warriors who lash out like that, and it is pretty annoying.
    I think that criticism of Israeli policy is obviously not anti-semitic; otherwise there would be millions of Israeli Jews who are considered anti-semitic.

    What I find annoying is that it seems like many on the pro-Palestine side claim they are being accused of anti-semitism about ten times for every time they are actually accused of it. I've found in my experience that pro-Palestine advocates often bring it up out of the blue, it's like a pre-emptive attack to claim they are unfairly being accused of anti-semitism and it completely muddies the waters.

    If I hypothetically disagreed with Iran's (now abandoned) policy on nuclear research noone would claim I was islamophobic. Why should I be labelled anti-semitic for criticising Israeli policy?
    I think the issue, in my mind, is two-fold. The first is that I don't think pro-Palestine advocates are accused of being inherently anti-semitic nearly as much as they claim they are; my experience is that they are often the first ones to bring it up.

    The second fold of the issue is that I don't think one can truly understand the vehemence, and hatred even, with which many people criticise the nation state of the Jewish people without understanding the anti-semitic element. There are plenty of countries, like China (Tibet), Turkey (Northern Cyprus), India (Kashmir) etc that are in the position of occupying a particular area coupled with a degree of human rights abuses.

    But it seems that all these other countries are essentially ignored; I do think it's relevant to ask why the fixation on the world's only Jewish state. If Israel was a Muslim state, do you really think it would be criticised in the way it is?
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    I think that criticism of Israeli policy is obviously not anti-semitic; otherwise there would be millions of Israeli Jews who are considered anti-semitic.

    What I find annoying is that it seems like many on the pro-Palestine side claim they are being accused of anti-semitism about ten times for every time they are actually accused of it. I've found in my experience that pro-Palestine advocates often bring it up out of the blue, it's like a pre-emptive attack to claim they are unfairly being accused of anti-semitism and it completely muddies the waters.
    They shouldn't use it as a shield no. The problem is I think that many of them feel obliged to say it because even if it is rarely an accusation made to them, the whole area of Israel is sensitive in this respect. Judaism and Israel are so interconnected that anti-semitism is almost implied. What I'm (badly) trying to say is that despite there being no solid evidence the emotional reaction I get when I criticise Israel is that I have to be careful to avoid coming across that way. Considering anti-semitism has such bad connotations to it and such a horrific history, can you really blame someone for pre-emptively denying it? Then again, straight up accusing someone of using anti-semitism as an insult towards the pro-palestine side is just as bad. Ironically, it shuts down debate just as much as actual accusations of anti-semitism do.


    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    I think the issue, in my mind, is two-fold. The first is that I don't think pro-Palestine advocates are accused of being inherently anti-semitic nearly as much as they claim they are; my experience is that they are often the first ones to bring it up.

    The second fold of the issue is that I don't think one can truly understand the vehemence, and hatred even, with which many people criticise the nation state of the Jewish people without understanding the anti-semitic element. There are plenty of countries, like China (Tibet), Turkey (Northern Cyprus), India (Kashmir) etc that are in the position of occupying a particular area coupled with a degree of human rights abuses.

    But it seems that all these other countries are essentially ignored; I do think it's relevant to ask why the fixation on the world's only Jewish state. If Israel was a Muslim state, do you really think it would be criticised in the way it is?
    It's irritating, but it probably wouldn't be criticised the same way. However I do think it's understandable. Fair or not, Muslim countries have a pretty poor reputation where human rights are concerned anyway. They are almost expected to behave poorly. Israel however seems to be portrayed and treated by World leaders as a prime example of a civilised country, and offered seemingly endless support by the US. Israel gets treated with the jealousy aimed at any other teacher's pet

    In all seriousness, I try to critic Israel the same way I do any country. It's a great country, impressive in many ways, especially with its treatment of gay rights, but I honestly think it is way too militaristic towards Palestine, all it does at the end of the day is land even more disillusioned Palestinians into the hands of organistations like Hamas. Israeli troops destroying buildings such as the El-Walas hospital hardly does them any favours among the local population. They just seem to lash out without thinking about what will happen as a result
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    (Original post by LemonFish)
    They shouldn't use it as a shield no. The problem is I think that many of them feel obliged to say it because even if it is rarely an accusation made to them, the whole area of Israel is sensitive in this respect. Judaism and Israel are so interconnected that anti-semitism is almost implied. What I'm (badly) trying to say is that despite there being no solid evidence the emotional reaction I get when I criticise Israel is that I have to be careful to avoid coming across that way. Considering anti-semitism has such bad connotations to it and such a horrific history, can you really blame someone for pre-emptively denying it? Then again, straight up accusing someone of using anti-semitism as an insult towards the pro-palestine side is just as bad. Ironically, it shuts down debate just as much as actual accusations of anti-semitism do.
    I completely agree with you in that. I tear my hair out when it comes up because then the whole debate moves away from what is actually relevant; Israel's actions (of which I am myself extremely critical).

    I think what I find most disturbing is that it feels like a lot of the criticism goes beyond mere criticism and ends up at a point where it is fundamentally saying that Israel has no right to exist. For example, I pointed out the other day in a debate to a guy that about half of the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, from countries like Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Morrocco, Yemen etc. I asked him what should happen to the Iraqi Jews in Israel (as he proposed Israelis should all be expelled), where can they go now? He said he didn't care, Israel is an illegitimate state and that's their problem.

    I desperately want the occupation of the Palestinian territories to end, and the settlements to be removed. I think the occupation is bad for both the Palestinians (obviously, all the checkpoints, the humiliations etc, is bad) but also for the Israelis (having to occupy another people, to find traitors within that occupied population to work for you.. I think it would bring out the darkness in any people and so Israelis tendency is that they are crueler and have a hard heart to such things more than if they weren't occupying).

    But.... I find it really disturbing when it feels like the criticism goes way beyond that to say that, no matter what the various claims of each side (and Jews do have a reasonable claim, there were Jewish people who continuously lived in the Levant and never left, and the Arabs were probably only a majority from the 13th century onwards), and no matter what the practical considerations of uprooting seven million Israelis, these people say they do not care, that Israel is an evil apartheid state and must be ended. I don't think Israel is a perfect country by any means, but I do also think it has many good aspects (the fact you can have black Ethiopian Jews and Iraqi Jews, Poles and Australians, 17 year olds, serving together in a people's army.. it's probably the most multicultural society in the world). It is quite a tolerant society to LGBT people, and contributes a lot in terms of high tech research, medical research etc.

    The occupation has to end... but I fear that many people on the pro-Palestine side go further and want Israel to be ended as well. And it's true to say that some do... possibly a small majority don't, but many do.

    It's irritating, but it probably wouldn't be criticised the same way. However I do think it's understandable. Fair or not, Muslim countries have a pretty poor reputation where human rights are concerned anyway. They are almost expected to behave poorly. Israel however seems to be portrayed and treated by World leaders as a prime example of a civilised country, and offered seemingly endless support by the US. Israel gets treated with the jealousy aimed at any other teacher's pet
    That is a genuine issue and a real consideration. The thing is... the Middle East is a very harsh area of the world. It turned out that not only could the Jews play the Middle East power game, but they were actually pretty good at it (the spies, the assassinations, the eye for an eye mentality). It's like you have ancient tribal enmity with modern weapons.

    But in some ways Israel does try; in the recent Gaza War, they sent text messages and dropped leaflets to tell people that an airstrike was coming, they could have just bombed from the air but they sent in ground troops (and lost quite a few). They've also made mistakes and in some cases were too heavy in applying the artillery, but I think it is a mixed bag. There's both good and bad in their military conduct.

    I'm genuinely not sure how you resolve that; that Israel is in many ways a Western country with liberal traditions. But that it is located in the Middle East, where the mindset and the approach to resolving problems is very different to what would be considered appropriate in Europe. I really don't know whether you hold Israel to a higher standard, or a higher standard but with some consideration of their geographical situation.

    In all seriousness, I try to critic Israel the same way I do any country. It's a great country, impressive in many ways, especially with its treatment of gay rights, but I honestly think it is way too militaristic towards Palestine, all it does at the end of the day is land even more disillusioned Palestinians into the hands of organistations like Hamas
    I agree that it is too militaristic towards the Palestinians. And I think that in some ways Jewish people, by dint of previously always having been a persecuted minority... they are not psychologically set up for a scenario where they have military superiority over another group. It's alien to them, and I think as a result they have not responded appropriately.

    I really want the occupation to end, I think it can end and there can be a just settlement. What I fear is that there are extremists on both sides (the most religious settler nutcases, along with those on the other side who want Israel to be ended as a state) who will veto a just and final settlement of the conflict
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    I completely agree with you in that. I tear my hair out when it comes up because then the whole debate moves away from what is actually relevant; Israel's actions (of which I am myself extremely critical).

    I think what I find most disturbing is that it feels like a lot of the criticism goes beyond mere criticism and ends up at a point where it is fundamentally saying that Israel has no right to exist. For example, I pointed out the other day in a debate to a guy that about half of the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, from countries like Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Morrocco, Yemen etc. I asked him what should happen to the Iraqi Jews in Israel (as he proposed Israelis should all be expelled), where can they go now? He said he didn't care, Israel is an illegitimate state and that's their problem.
    t
    Wow, lets be frank, you can't have a proper debate with someone like that. Its stupid that someone can be so outraged at the oppression of one group of people and then suggest another group of millions of people should be kicked out of their homes and made into refugees. Who knew self righteousness and irrational hatred looked so good together?


    (Original post by SignFromDog)

    I desperately want the occupation of the Palestinian territories to end, and the settlements to be removed. I think the occupation is bad for both the Palestinians (obviously, all the checkpoints, the humiliations etc, is bad) but also for the Israelis (having to occupy another people, to find traitors within that occupied population to work for you.. I think it would bring out the darkness in any people and so Israelis tendency is that they are crueler and have a hard heart to such things more than if they weren't occupying).

    But.... I find it really disturbing when it feels like the criticism goes way beyond that to say that, no matter what the various claims of each side (and Jews do have a reasonable claim, there were Jewish people who continuously lived in the Levant and never left, and the Arabs were probably only a majority from the 13th century onwards), and no matter what the practical considerations of uprooting seven million Israelis, these people say they do not care, that Israel is an evil apartheid state and must be ended. I don't think Israel is a perfect country by any means, but I do also think it has many good aspects (the fact you can have black Ethiopian Jews and Iraqi Jews, Poles and Australians, 17 year olds, serving together in a people's army.. it's probably the most multicultural society in the world). It is quite a tolerant society to LGBT people, and contributes a lot in terms of high tech research, medical research etc.

    The occupation has to end... but I fear that many people on the pro-Palestine side go further and want Israel to be ended as well. And it's true to say that some do... possibly a small majority don't, but many do.
    I don't think there are that many of them personally, and I certainly don't want the pro-Palestine side of the debate being tarnished by such a view. All I have ever personally wanted is for Palestine to gain its independence, nothing more. 136 countries recognise Palestine as an independent state, I'm pretty sure that at least some of those aren't biased former Soviet Bloc countries with an agenda, and are respected democracies. It's why I get infuriated with Israel's apparent stubbornness on the issue. Israel's only possible reason for keeping Palestine occupied (in my view) can be maintaining Israel's regional influence and power. It's just not how I'd expect a country of Israel's standing to behave. I actually think giving Palestine independence could improve it's security as well, as it would destroy Hamas's main attraction to local people.


    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    That is a genuine issue and a real consideration. The thing is... the Middle East is a very harsh area of the world. It turned out that not only could the Jews play the Middle East power game, but they were actually pretty good at it (the spies, the assassinations, the eye for an eye mentality). It's like you have ancient tribal enmity with modern weapons.
    They have done well in some ways, Mossad especially is a scary bunch of people, but their politics and interactions in the region is in my opinion... sub-par. Just look at the six days war for example. When Israel was beating back Egypt after the nation tried to invade Israel, all the Arab States attempted to force the Western world into dropping it's support for Israel, by cutting oil exports (the way they brought countries to heel so effectively this way still scares me a bit XD). When a region as fractious as the middle east gangs up on you, you know you are doing something wrong. Israel needs to reach out more in my view and attempt to make more friends in the Middle East. The religious differences does hold them back however I admit (I sometimes wonder if perhaps Israel would do better on this front by presenting itself as less a Jewish orientated country- as you have said, it is certainly multicultural enough).


    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    But in some ways Israel does try; in the recent Gaza War, they sent text messages and dropped leaflets to tell people that an airstrike was coming, they could have just bombed from the air but they sent in ground troops (and lost quite a few). They've also made mistakes and in some cases were too heavy in applying the artillery, but I think it is a mixed bag. There's both good and bad in their military conduct.

    I'm genuinely not sure how you resolve that; that Israel is in many ways a Western country with liberal traditions. But that it is located in the Middle East, where the mindset and the approach to resolving problems is very different to what would be considered appropriate in Europe. I really don't know whether you hold Israel to a higher standard, or a higher standard but with some consideration of their geographical situation.

    I agree that it is too militaristic towards the Palestinians. And I think that in some ways Jewish people, by dint of previously always having been a persecuted minority... they are not psychologically set up for a scenario where they have military superiority over another group. It's alien to them, and I think as a result they have not responded appropriately.

    I really want the occupation to end, I think it can end and there can be a just settlement. What I fear is that there are extremists on both sides (the most religious settler nutcases, along with those on the other side who want Israel to be ended as a state) who will veto a just and final settlement of the conflict
    Personally, I think a lot of their approach is wrong. I can't blame them for lashing out when terrorist attacks occur, other quite prominent nations in the West are equally as guilty of that. But sometimes it seems to me that the world has taken a collective brain fart in how to deal with terrorists and insurgents. If you look at say, the Malayan Emergency, more progress was made by diplomacy, propaganda towards locals and offers such as asylum to Communist insurgents who surrendered. I don't get the current attitude of "lets blow them up guyz and hope for the best". In my view politicians and negotiators, and acts of charity towards Palestine would serve Israel better here than simply resorting to the military as they often do.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    So what is your view of the following words

    "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
    As I said before - abhorrent and virulently anti-Semitic, but I don't see the supposed genocidal aspect. Indeed, such an interpretation is clearly contradicted by other articles of the Charter, for example, it also says: "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."


    Besides which, several Hamas leaders, such as Meshaal and Haniyeh, have declared the Charter to be no longer relevant to Hamas policy and aims anyway.


    Markets itself as such? Presumably you are not denying that Israel itself (within the 1967 borders) is a fairly tolerant society, that encompasses many viewpoints and modes of living from Christian monasteries to ultra-Orthodox Jewish yeshivas to socialist Zionist kibbutzes to the Tel Aviv gay scene. It is indeed a very pluralstic society.
    A state can be liberal on social issues yet still be fundamentally ethnocentric and racist. Israel in the pre-1967 borders (a distinction Israel itself only really uses when it benefits it to do so) is best described as an ethnocracy. For now, just one prominent example - the idea that Palestinian citizens of Israel are a "demographic problem" that should not be permitted to grow beyond 20-25% or so of the population. This idea exists across the spectrum in Israel, even among figures on the left.
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    As if there was any doubt, here's this one bigoted woman saying things on camera.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    The second fold of the issue is that I don't think one can truly understand the vehemence, and hatred even, with which many people criticise the nation state of the Jewish people without understanding the anti-semitic element. There are plenty of countries, like China (Tibet), Turkey (Northern Cyprus), India (Kashmir) etc that are in the position of occupying a particular area coupled with a degree of human rights abuses.

    But it seems that all these other countries are essentially ignored; I do think it's relevant to ask why the fixation on the world's only Jewish state. If Israel was a Muslim state, do you really think it would be criticised in the way it is?
    1. Nukes
    2. Western geopolitical interests
    3. Duration of conflict

    Kashmir lacks 2. Tibet lacks 2. Cyprus lacks them all.
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    (Original post by LemonFish)
    I sometimes wonder if perhaps Israel would do better on this front by presenting itself as less a Jewish orientated country.
    How about Scotland presenting itself as less a Scottish oriented country?
    • Political Ambassador
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    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    1. Nukes
    2. Western geopolitical interests
    3. Duration of conflict

    Kashmir lacks 2. Tibet lacks 2. Cyprus lacks them all.
    Why are nukes relevant to the interest in the conflict? They are a pretty separate issue from the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    1. Nukes
    2. Western geopolitical interests
    3. Duration of conflict
    1. Jews
    2. Jews
    3. Jews
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    (Original post by admonit)
    1. Jews
    2. Jews
    3. Jews
    Would you look at that SignFromDog? Keyboard Warrior no. 1 has made his appearance.

    'insert argument here'

    Counter-argument: 'Anti-Semitism'
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    Zionists seem terrified that an actual pro-Palestinian politician has become leader of the Labour party
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    We,the Arabs are also Semites,also since when does criticising Israel= antisemitism? I'm pretty sure most people hate Israel with passion
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I'm pretty sure most people hate Israel with passion
    Likely less than 10% of people in the UK "hate Israel with a passion". Internationally, closer to 30%. So, wrong on both counts. As for the proportion that distrust Jews/Israel, and/or disapprove of her policies/state-sponsored acts,* you may have a point, in this case
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Likely less than 10% of people in the UK "hate Israel with a passion". Internationally, closer to 30%. So, wrong on both counts. As for the proportion that distrust Jews/Israel, and/or disapprove of her policies/state-sponsored acts,* you may have a point, in this case
    Agree. I don't know how anyone can support Israel after what it's done to the poor Palestinians
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    (Original post by admonit)
    How about Scotland presenting itself as less a Scottish oriented country?
    The difference is that "Scottish" is a very fluid and largely subjective identity that, for the most part, relates directly to citizenship, not a clear-cut hereditary ethnic group identity that one cannot acquire through purely civil channels.
 
 
 
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