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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Is this North Korea or something where if you fail to sing the anthem you are a traitor to the State??

    Amazing how people miss the point about a war fought so that we could enjoy freedoms....

    Next time England play a football international and they play the national anthem watch the camera going across the England team, about 5 of them will sing the anthem and the rest will stand there in silence. Are we going to have a big moan from the papers about this.

    Sometimes the right wing make me laugh. They always tell us how feminists and the politically-correct brigade "get offended" too often and then they get offended by stuff like this....
    This furor over Corbyn not singing the anthem sounds very much like the "thought-police" antics the right have accused the left of committing over the last couple of decades... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by ManifoldManifest)
    A noted agnostic republican did not ask God to save a monarch. I am shocked. Had he sung the national anthem he would have no doubt had just as much flack from people accusing him of being a hypocrite.

    It sure is a good thing the newspapers have this non-event to cover the front pages with instead of mentioning the cut to tax credits.
    He applied for - and got - the job of the leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition. He's accepted an offer to be a member of the Privy Council. If he is going to apply for jobs that implicitly go against his beliefs, he should at least mouth the words to a song. I'm not religious, but if I'm in a church, I sing the hymns - I don't believe the words I'm singing, but it's just a sign of respect to the others taking part. David Cameron, when he enters a gurdwara, takes off his shoes and wears an orange headscarf; again, just a sign of respect. Why Corbyn cannot stomach his Principled Pride for one moment and sing the national anthem, rather than refuse and take all media attention away from the event and onto him, is beyond me.

    And the tax credit legislation - which got cross-party support - was dealt with in detail when Osborne announced the measures loudly and clearly in the Budget earlier this year.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    He applied for - and got - the job of the leader of Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition. He's accepted an offer to be a member of the Privy Council. If he is going to apply for jobs that implicitly go against his beliefs, he should at least mouth the words to a song. I'm not religious, but if I'm in a church, I sing the hymns - I don't believe the words I'm singing, but it's just a sign of respect to the others taking part. David Cameron, when he enters a gurdwara, takes off his shoes and wears an orange headscarf; again, just a sign of respect. Why Corbyn cannot stomach his Principled Pride for one moment and sing the national anthem, rather than refuse and take all media attention away from the event and onto him, is beyond me.

    And the tax credit legislation - which got cross-party support - was dealt with in detail when Osborne announced the measures loudly and clearly in the Budget earlier this year.
    There's nothing in law, the constitution or any place else that lays down that the leader of HM Opposition needs to sing the national anthem at state commemorations.

    I know many people are peeved because they regard it as contempt (I honestly don't think he means in that way) but it's wrong to claim that it is somehow a binding duty of the role.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There's nothing in law, the constitution or any place else that lays down that the leader of HM Opposition needs to sing the national anthem at state commemorations.

    I know many people are peeved because they regard it as contempt (I honestly don't think he means in that way) but it's wrong to claim that it is somehow a binding duty of the role.
    Did I say it was a part of law? It's implied by leading HM's Most Loyal Opposition that you are loyal to the Queen, and if not, that you at least refrain from refusing to sing the anthem.

    He is, however, in breach of the spirit of the oath taken upon becoming a member of the Privy Council.

    Luckily he'll be made to sing it next time. Which will be slightly embarrassing.
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    Plenty of republican socialists fought the Nazis for Britain. There would have been those who couldn't care less or would have even been supportive of such actions.

    Don;t show disrespect for them by assuming they all held the same politics as you, or using them to promote your own politics.


    That being said this isn't going to go down well...
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    Why is this a big deal? O.o
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    I have to admit the URL for the telegraph article makes me laugh: Jeremy-Corbyn-arrives-for-first-official-engagement-wearing-tie.html sums up how much of a non-story this is.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Did I say it was a part of law? It's implied by leading HM's Most Loyal Opposition that you are loyal to the Queen, and if not, that you at least refrain from refusing to sing the anthem.

    He is, however, in breach of the spirit of the oath taken upon becoming a member of the Privy Council.

    Luckily he'll be made to sing it next time. Which will be slightly embarrassing.
    It isn't really implied. Here is the text of the oath. It's more about agreeing to be a spy for the Monarch, which isn't surprising, as it was constructed during the seedy and paranoid reign of the Tudors when everyone was a potential enemy to be hacked to pieces if they showed the slightest sign of not being a mental slave to the King/Queen. Totally different now of course! No trial by media. :rolleyes:

    You will not know or understand of any manner of thing to be attempted, done or spoken against Her Majesty’s Person, Honour, Crown or Dignity Royal, but you will lett [sic] and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to Her Majesty Herself, or to such of Her Privy Council as shall advertise Her Majesty of the same.

    You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in Council, faithfully and truly declare your Mind and Opinion, according to your Heart and Conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in Council.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It isn't really implied. Here is the text of the oath. It's more about agreeing to be a spy for the Monarch, which isn't surprising, as it was constructed during the seedy and paranoid reign of the Tudors when everyone was a potential enemy to be hacked to pieces if they showed the slightest sign of not being a mental slave to the King/Queen. Totally different now of course! No trial by media. :rolleyes:
    You are confused. I said it was implied by the job title, but even more explicitly stated in the oath to become a member of the Privy Council, which he wants to be. One of the last sentences of the oath, which you have not laid out in full, mentions that a Privy Councillor is a 'faithful and true Servant' to the Queen; if you are going to argue that this doesn't mean you need to sing along to the national anthem, you are simply being obtuse.
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    Horrified horrified I tell you absolutely horrified at this despicable man. Despicable I tell you this little man who went out and campaigned with the disabled what a despicable little non singer of the anthem. What would he have been better off doing this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIwBvjoLyZc
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    You are confused. I said it was implied by the job title, but even more explicitly stated in the oath to become a member of the Privy Council, which he wants to be. One of the last sentences of the oath, which you have not laid out in full, mentions that a Privy Councillor is a 'faithful and true Servant' to the Queen; if you are going to argue that this doesn't mean you need to sing along to the national anthem, you are simply being obtuse.
    I don't think you can prove that means he should sing the words of the NA at every showing. I'm not saying I disagree that there's a bit of hypocrisy in being willing to sign up for the Privy whilst reserving the right not to sing her Maj's praises, but legalistically I think the evidence is against you. For example, you are disregarding (apparently) the line about him being free to speak his mind and opinions.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    X
    Actuality pretty much every time I have been to some church service I haven't sang. No one complained. I polity remained silent. Not like I started handing out God is Not Great Hitchens books whilst they were singing. The general "niceness" and "harmlessness" of the Church of England is what makes it a lot better than more dogmatic religions like Catholicism. That is what a constitutional monarch is supposed to be. You can;t go around demanding anyone that wants to work in government has to be a royalist. You are tip toeing towards advocating some kind of authoritarian state like worship. But to be fair even republican states adopt this.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Luckily he'll be made to sing it next time. Which will be slightly embarrassing.
    Embarassing if in a free country he is made to sing the national anthem.

    The thought police strike again.

    I wonder if Corbyn will make Labour delegates sing the Red Flag can you imagine the furore that will cause. "Stalinism"!
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Actuality pretty much every time I have been to some church service I haven't sang. No one complained. I polity remained silent. Not like I started handing out God is Not Great Hitchens books whilst they were singing. The general "niceness" and "harmlessness" of the Church of England is what makes it a lot better than more dogmatic religions like Catholicism. That is what a constitutional monarch is supposed to be. You can;t go around demanding anyone that wants to work in government has to be a royalist. You are tip toeing towards advocating some kind of authoritarian state like worship. But to be fair even republican states adopt this.
    He wants to be a Privy Councillor. That's the job - to advise the Queen in the capacity of a faithful and true servant. He doesn't need to take the Rt Hon title if he doesn't accept the terms of that contract; he could carry out his duties simply as leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition (though the 'most loyal' bit does jar when the guy's a republican). He can't take the post and then do things like that.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't think you can prove that means he should sing the words of the NA at every showing. I'm not saying I disagree that there's a bit of hypocrisy in being willing to sign up for the Privy whilst reserving the right not to sing her Maj's praises, but legalistically I think the evidence is against you. For example, you are disregarding (apparently) the line about him being free to speak his mind and opinions.
    Free to speak his mind within the context of being loyal etc to the Queen. Obviously, it would be ridiculous for the PM to state he wants the Queen to be sacked and the monarchy to be done with and defend himself by saying that his contract tells him to speak his mind.

    So what evidence is there against my argument? He signs up to be a Privy Councillor, yet doesn't accept the duties and promises that are made re loyalty that come with the post.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    I was horrified to read in this morning's paper that the leader of Her Majesty's Opposition refused to sing the National Anthem at the Battle of Britain memorial service.
    This pathetic insult to Her Majesty and the gallant young men who gave their lives for their country shows the shallowness of this clown. He makes Russell Brand look like Gladstone.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...aring-tie.html
    He was there and that is what mattered. How is not singing an anthem disrespecting them?
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Embarassing if in a free country he is made to sing the national anthem.

    The thought police strike again.

    I wonder if Corbyn will make Labour delegates sing the Red Flag can you imagine the furore that will cause. "Stalinism"!
    We don't live in an anarchic society - no one is completely free.

    But I could even accept it if he weren't looking to become a Privy Councillor. My mother wouldn't sing the national anthem as she's a German republican, and I get that, but this guy wants to get the Rt Hon title without accepting the duties and presentational expectations that come along with the job.
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    Seems fair enough.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Free to speak his mind within the context of being loyal etc to the Queen.
    Authoritarian.

    I really don't understand why you or anyone else cares so much whether a party leader dared to press any kind of republican sentiments or not. It's sad and a bit pathetic. If they can't that is really bad for democracy and potentially dangerous. If you can;t change something through reformist means then that only leaves revolution...

    I know no one is really free but I would rather live in a country where we can send anyone into government to express any kind of view. You know, so we don't end up like a lot fo the world that lives unto authoritarian regimes. It;s like defending the state institution in China just because they are there and that every single Chinese person should respect them. It's pathetic.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Authoritarian.

    I really don't understand why you or anyone else cares so much whether a party leader dared to press any kind of republican sentiments or not. It's sad and a bit pathetic. If they can't that is really bad for democracy and potentially dangerous. If you can;t change something through reformist means then that only leaves revolution...

    I know no one is really free but I would rather live in a country where we can send anyone into government to express any kind of view. You know, so we don't end up like a lot fo the world that lives unto authoritarian regimes. It;s like defending the state institution in China just because they are there and that every single Chinese person should respect them. It's pathetic.
    He can be a republican, I really don't care. It's his wanting to join the Privy Council that is wrong. He can call the constitutional monarchic system an authoritarian one all he wants, but he can't then become a member of the Privy Council.

    So you've misunderstood my argument. He can be in politics, that's fine, but he cannot join a group whose job it is to advise the Queen as loyal and true servants.
 
 
 
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