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    (Original post by maggiedavies)
    Despite the fact that finances has pretty much nothing to do with my question:
    The government's Student Finance will cover the first undergraduate degree;
    and then a personal loan will cover the tuition costs of GED; but I plan on taking a gap year (or 2...) in between to hopefully find a small job to earn some money for a while + doing some volunteering/work experience etc.
    To be honest, you could do with being a little less snappish with people who're just trying to give you relevant advice. This is all the more important given your lack of easy research into the subject.

    You're really considering taking out a personal loan to finance tuition fees that currently stand at £9 000/year and are set to rise with inflation in future? Good luck. You'd be better off taking student finance and doing foundation medicine; that loan is much friendlier because it's repayment conditions essentially make it a tax.

    Not to mention the difficulty of getting into graduate entry medicine -- it's uncommon to find applicant to place ratios of less than 25:1 for GEM courses. Foundation medicine is similarly competitive because there aren't that many places but at least you're not wasting time doing a degree you don't want to do, which is an important consideration when the time spent at university is proportional to the amount you'd have to pay back (with interest). Don't diss people just for pointing out this important detail.
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I wouldn't take on £51k of debt by doing an undergrad degree now purely to try for GEM.

    People have this impression that student loans almost don't exist. They'll be written off after 25 years right, so who cares? You'll never pay it off, so its fine.
    But thats 25 years of having money withdrawn from every paycheck. And although they don't take huge amounts each time, it all adds up. And who is to say they won't increase the percentage of your paycheck that they take each month.

    Add to that the fact the that current (and likely future government) don't want to pay Doctors any more than pennies and you're looking at a poor financial future. Thanks to previous over lending banks are now more cautious. They look at all debt when issuing mortgages, including student loans. Who is going to issue a mortgage to someone with 100k of student debt and a piss poor wage in the NHS?

    Myself and current GEM students have pondered whether we would still do it, if we knew about junior contracts and it is certainly something that makes us think.

    Like I've said, its not about being in Medicine for the money. But its not a financially secure degree any more, especially when you look at how much you pay to get the degree.
    Agree with this but, just to be a pedant, I'll say that the write-off time limit is now 30 years, not 25.
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I wouldn't take on £51k of debt by doing an undergrad degree now purely to try for GEM.

    People have this impression that student loans almost don't exist. They'll be written off after 25 years right, so who cares? You'll never pay it off, so its fine.
    But thats 25 years of having money withdrawn from every paycheck. And although they don't take huge amounts each time, it all adds up. And who is to say they won't increase the percentage of your paycheck that they take each month.

    Add to that the fact the that current (and likely future government) don't want to pay Doctors any more than pennies and you're looking at a poor financial future. Thanks to previous over lending banks are now more cautious. They look at all debt when issuing mortgages, including student loans. Who is going to issue a mortgage to someone with 100k of student debt and a piss poor wage in the NHS?

    Myself and current GEM students have pondered whether we would still do it, if we knew about junior contracts and it is certainly something that makes us think.

    Like I've said, its not about being in Medicine for the money. But its not a financially secure degree any more, especially when you look at how much you pay to get the degree.
    Cheers Doc

    If you wasn't doing GEM, would you be happy doing the alternative to the course (perhaps this was continuing with nursing development)?.

    Personally other than applying to medicine (really hoping!), I'm completely clueless as to what to do (think I'd shoot myself in a PhD!), so I'd think I would still go for it regardless of the initial lack of pay relative to time in education (forever).

    Why do you think there will be a significant downward trajectory in the wage of docs?

    As far as I have read the contract changes would result in reduced overtime (which I know accounts for a fair amount of extra money for junior doctors) would still be earning a livable wage, despite money coming out of paychecks ('graduate tax').

    BTW, along with everyone else, I think the changes are complete BS. Surely these will be challenged considerably?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Agree with this but, just to be a pedant, I'll say that the write-off time limit is now 30 years, not 25.
    Even worse. Who wants to be paying out for 30 years? Mortgages are shorter and you get a nice house for it.
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    This is tough...
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    BTW, along with everyone else, I think the changes are complete BS. Surely these will be challenged considerably?
    They've already been rejected in Wales and Scotland because health is devolved to the regional governments. However, it's unlikely that any number of strikes will stop them being implemented in England. The conclusion we might draw is that NHS jobs in Wales and Scotland are likely to become much more competitive. And the competition for medical school places might drop slightly once people understand the changes, I suppose. I really don't understand most people's rationale in doing medicine, to be honest. :dontknow:
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Cheers Doc

    If you wasn't doing GEM, would you be happy doing the alternative to the course (perhaps this was continuing with nursing development)?.

    Personally other than applying to medicine (really hoping!), I'm completely clueless as to what to do (think I'd shoot myself in a PhD!), so I'd think I would still go for it regardless of the initial lack of pay relative to time in education (forever).

    Why do you think there will be a significant downward trajectory in the wage of docs?

    As far as I have read the contract changes would result in reduced overtime (which I know accounts for a fair amount of extra money for junior doctors) would still be earning a livable wage, despite money coming out of paychecks ('graduate tax'.

    BTW, along with everyone else, I think the changes are complete BS. Surely these will be challenged considerably?
    The junior contract would mean a decrease in wages. Its not overtime they are getting rid of (although decreasing the amount of wage locums get this will stop Dr's being able to easily top up their income) but changing what unsocial hours they get compensated for. Instead of normal working hours including 7am-7pm, they would now include 7-10pm and Saturdays are just a normal day. Doctors are all prepared to work long and unsocial hours but they expect to be fairly compensated for the sacrifice.
    This government want to erode and destroy the NHS and their current mode of choice is targeting staff. Its not going to get better for doctors, at least not for a long time.

    Doctors are doing their best to challenge it, there are plenty of things on FB and social media. Mainstream media are slowly picking up on it too. There is a second protest march tomorrow. But the Government will continue to portray Drs as the bad guys and will probably go through with it anyway.

    I don't know what I would do if I wasn't doing GEM. Maybe become a PA, because the government seems to see them as a fix all and pay them much more than 90% of junior doctors even though they are much less qualified. (Realistically probably not, because the PA role doesn't appeal).
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    They've already been rejected in Wales and Scotland because health is devolved to the regional governments. However, it's unlikely that any number of strikes will stop them being implemented in England. The conclusion we might draw is that NHS jobs in Wales and Scotland are likely to become much more competitive. And the competition for medical school places might drop slightly once people understand the changes, I suppose. I really don't understand most people's rationale in doing medicine, to be honest. :dontknow:
    Hmm, true. So ultimately there is nothing anyone can do about the gov decision?
    Regarding your last point, I suppose would have to look at comparisons? I'm still not sure there are better options for pay (total, rather than relative), continued development, and variation of content?
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    The junior contract would mean a decrease in wages. Its not overtime they are getting rid of (although decreasing the amount of wage locums get this will stop Dr's being able to easily top up their income) but changing what unsocial hours they get compensated for. Instead of normal working hours including 7am-7pm, they would now include 7-10pm and Saturdays are just a normal day. Doctors are all prepared to work long and unsocial hours but they expect to be fairly compensated for the sacrifice.
    This government want to erode and destroy the NHS and their current mode of choice is targeting staff. Its not going to get better for doctors, at least not for a long time.

    Doctors are doing their best to challenge it, there are plenty of things on FB and social media. Mainstream media are slowly picking up on it too. There is a second protest march tomorrow. But the Government will continue to portray Drs as the bad guys and will probably go through with it anyway.

    I don't know what I would do if I wasn't doing GEM. Maybe become a PA, because the government seems to see them as a fix all and pay them much more than 90% of junior doctors even though they are much less qualified. (Realistically probably not, because the PA role doesn't appeal).
    Sorry, that's what I meant to say by overtime (working 'unsocial' hours for extra pay on top of baseline?). Increasing social hours so massively is such a farce.
    I understood that the gov is trying to pull apart the NHS - but I have yet to really understand why? The answer is probably a very obvious one I haven't picked up on.
    I hope you're still enjoying your course (at least some bits!)
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Sorry, that's what I meant to say by overtime (working 'unsocial' hours for extra pay on top of baseline?). Increasing social hours so massively is such a farce.
    I understood that the gov is trying to pull apart the NHS - but I have yet to really understand why? The answer is probably a very obvious one I haven't picked up on.
    I hope you're still enjoying your course (at least some bits!)
    Because they're all waiting to make a **** tonne of money when it eventually gets privatised. Jeremy Hunt wrote a book on privatising the NHS.
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    Because they're all waiting to make a **** tonne of money when it eventually gets privatised. Jeremy Hunt wrote a book on privatising the NHS.
    Thanks again. I sort of want to read this book... but really don't want any money to go into his wallet.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Hmm, true. So ultimately there is nothing anyone can do about the gov decision?
    Regarding your last point, I suppose would have to look at comparisons? I'm still not sure there are better options for pay (total, rather than relative), continued development, and variation of content?
    They can continue to strike and the BMA can continue to negotiate with the government but it's my personal opinion that it's unlikely to yield any substantial changes that favour doctors. They've won this sort of argument before, what with the pay freeze at the start of the previous Parliament (2010 - 2015) by simply saying that doctors are well-paid relative to other professions (whilst failing to mention that most other professions don't require nearly as much training or working unsociable hours).

    The public is likely to see this in the same way as the Tube drivers' strike: people on larger than average paychecks complaining about nothing. Of course, the reality is a little more complicated than that but there's not much that you can do to convince the public that the two are actually quite different. I suspect they'll be taken in by the government's rhetoric about a 'seven-day NHS.'

    The pay is justified and there is a strong case for it to be increased. There are quite a few junior doctors who are, on paper, making more money than average but, when you consider the sheer number of weekly hours (~60) being put in, it actually amounts to little more than the minimum wage. I do hope that there isn't anybody who thinks that, after all that hard work and study, doctors deserve to be paid the same amount as somebody who didn't do all that and simply got a job at a supermarket. The only way to make what might be considered really good money considering the job and the training that precedes it in the NHS these days is to do locums, preferably on short notice because those pay more.

    As far as continued development and variation of content goes, I think most people would probably trade that for an easier job if the pay was the same. Contrary to what some sycophantic personal statements might suggest, doctors aren't exclusively in it to help people. The standard of living they get at the end of it is quite important to them.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Thanks again. I sort of want to read this book... but really don't want any money to go into his wallet.
    See if your local library has it. :lol:
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    After, for probably the 8th time, reading through the entry requirements of all the foundation courses to Medicine; as previously mentioned, I only meet the requirements for Dundee. So I guess I can apply for that.
 
 
 
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