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So, 18,000 junior Doctors are going on strike today. Does anyone care? watch

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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    I guess you have never heard of the French then, they stormed into a board meeting, dragged the board members out and even tore one's shirt off and tied him up, all while yelling "we'll lay you off" (as the board wanted to lay off/sack a load of workers)

    I'd also presume the eggs comment is a joke, funny or not, about the previous people's assembly march in manchester where a tory went to the protesters, and held up a copy of the telegraph which had a photo of thatcher on the front, so one protester threw an egg at them.
    Lol just because that happened in France doesn't make it acceptable?

    I heard of that (again pretty surprised at how the UK left wing protests) but eggs/flour aren't uncommon at your protests generally, it may have referred to that.

    (Original post by TheCitizenAct)
    Slander. My girlfriend is Sri Lankan.

    It's the difference between saying 'black men are criminals' and 'a tiny minority of black men are criminals.' One is prejudicial and fallacious, the other is borderline accurate.

    I'm opposed to mass immigration. Then again, so is every minority group in The UK.
    Back to the point do you support them marching or not?
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    (Original post by SmashConcept)
    Well this new contract is not a result of immigration "impacting" doctors. And we can't scab them with immigrants because of 1. the law and 2. the logistical problems with replacing 55,000 employees with immigrants who probably don't want to come here in the first place.
    This is just my experience but I went into an NHS hospital for A & E and had a Polish nurse (I'm guessing from her name?) who genuinely could not speak English, fortunately the doctor I saw later could. (She couldn't speak Swedish either sadly). She could not even spell my condition and had to look it up!

    I think the NHS needs to check people can speak English more carefully if they are immigrants.
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    (Original post by SwedishRedhead)
    Lol just because that happened in France doesn't make it acceptable?

    I heard of that (again pretty surprised at how the UK left wing protests) but eggs/flour aren't uncommon at your protests generally, it may have referred to that.



    Back to the point do you support them marching or not?
    I never justified it, I was just making the point that we're hardly as extreme as some other European Countries, or indeed some South America Countries.

    As for eggs/flour being not uncommon, I've personally, nor have any of my friends who also go on marches, ever encountered any flour or eggs, you get some people at every type of event just looking for a bit of trouble of course, and you get some anarchists who likely don't particularly care what the march is for they just use it as an excuse to cause 'anarchy'. But given there are normally single digit number of arrests at such protests, given the vast number of people marching, I'd say they are on the whole peaceful and civil.
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    (Original post by Most Competitive)

    I'm in favour of the government's proposals because they will deter people who are "in it for the perks" from doing medicine.
    What perks? There are almost none. I suppose having Doctor in your name is nice, and a sizeable paycheck, but that's about it.

    Years of study, long hours, stress, dealing with the NHS admin, potentially dealing with death every day. It's a draining and demanding job and increasingly thankless.
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    (Original post by TheCitizenAct)
    Not at all.

    1. I would argue that importing 320,000 per year will have an impact on the number of hours Doctors have to work.

    2. I would argue that if this is our mentality - screw residents, prioritise the world - then we should stick to it. Just import more Doctors who are willing to work for less. It's not like we've not already imported plumbers, carpenters, builders and a lot more besides, many of whom are willing to work longer and for less. Why is it only a problem when it impacts Doctors?
    Because the quality of medical training here is very good compared to a lot of countries abroad. Plus you'd have to find doctors who are fluent in English (as foreign doctors wanting to work in UK have to do an English exam) seeing as communication is an imperative skill for the doctor-patient relationship.
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    Dealing purely with the financial situation (and not the removal of working hours safeguards):

    It is totally naive to think that someone should go into medicine with no consideration of salary.

    If you want to attract the academic and high achieving candidates into medicine then there needs to be incentives to work within it. There is currently a good balance of a dynamic and rewarding job and reasonable remuneration.

    Students who choose to study medicine are from the same cohort that also considers careers in finance, law etc. At university, medics see their non-medic peers finish university whilst we are only halfway through to join graduate schemes with staring salaries in excess of what a doctor earns even after five years of practice. But we don't begrudge this because we are on our way to becoming part of a very privileged career, albeit with many drawbacks and compromises (of which we are all aware and acknowledge).

    If the salary is further cut, as is being proposed, then why would someone spend five or six years at university and then thousands in subsequent professional/examination fees when you could do an alternative 9-5 job requiring next to no qualifications that will pay better. Doctors are highly skilled and highly qualified, and this should be reflected in the salary. I think it's fair to say the doctor working a 13 hour shift in Christmas Day should be earning more than the ward clerk, or porter, or cleaner.

    With proposed changes many of the bright students and potential medics will join their university peers in going down the route of generic financial careers, law, business, and they will be a big loss to the world of medicine and science, with a subsequent decline in the quality of doctors. And no, we cannot be replaced by foreign workers with no detriment in service quality.
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    (Original post by Fango_Jett)
    What perks? There are almost none. I suppose having Doctor in your name is nice, and a sizeable paycheck, but that's about it.

    Years of study, long hours, stress, dealing with the NHS admin, potentially dealing with death every day. It's a draining and demanding job and increasingly thankless.
    You should only do it if you can deal with all of that. The trouble is that people are easily swayed by what you said in the first line.

    As such I have no sympathy for doctors who choose to do it but then start complaining afterwards.
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    (Original post by Awesome-o)
    Dealing purely with the financial situation (and not the removal of working hours safeguards):

    It is totally naive to think that someone should go into medicine with no consideration of salary.

    If you want to attract the academic and high achieving candidates into medicine then there needs to be incentives to work within it. There is currently a good balance of a dynamic and rewarding job and reasonable remuneration.

    Students who choose to study medicine are from the same cohort that also considers careers in finance, law etc. At university, medics see their non-medic peers finish university whilst we are only halfway through to join graduate schemes with staring salaries in excess of what a doctor earns even after five years of practice. But we don't begrudge this because we are on our way to becoming part of a very privileged career, albeit with many drawbacks and compromises (of which we are all aware and acknowledge).

    If the salary is further cut, as is being proposed, then why would someone spend five or six years at university and then thousands in subsequent professional/examination fees when you could do an alternative 9-5 job requiring next to no qualifications that will pay better. Doctors are highly skilled and highly qualified, and this should be reflected in the salary. I think it's fair to say the doctor working a 13 hour shift in Christmas Day should be earning more than the ward clerk, or porter, or cleaner.

    With proposed changes many of the bright students and potential medics will join their university peers in going down the route of generic financial careers, law, business, and they will be a big loss to the world of medicine and science, with a subsequent decline in the quality of doctors. And no, we cannot be replaced by foreign workers with no detriment in service quality.
    How much would juniors be earning per hour after these changes?

    I am considering applying for Medicine as a mature student
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    (Original post by Fango_Jett)
    What perks? There are almost none. I suppose having Doctor in your name is nice, and a sizeable paycheck, but that's about it.

    Years of study, long hours, stress, dealing with the NHS admin, potentially dealing with death every day. It's a draining and demanding job and increasingly thankless.
    Prestige could be considered a big perk, I lurk the Medicine forum and just look at all the prospective applicants or med students on there with superiority complexes.
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    (Original post by SwedishRedhead)
    This is just my experience but I went into an NHS hospital for A & E and had a Polish nurse (I'm guessing from her name?) who genuinely could not speak English, fortunately the doctor I saw later could. (She couldn't speak Swedish either sadly). She could not even spell my condition and had to look it up!

    I think the NHS needs to check people can speak English more carefully if they are immigrants.
    So true!!!!

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    (Original post by justag)
    So true!!!!

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    I was quite worried, it is a very common condition (I won't name it but a 12 year old would have heard of it)
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    (Original post by Most Competitive)
    You should only do it if you can deal with all of that. The trouble is that people are easily swayed by what you said in the first line.

    As such I have no sympathy for doctors who choose to do it but then start complaining afterwards.
    They are dealing with it? It's their job. That doesn't mean they have to accept stupid proposals that worsen their working conditions.
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    (Original post by SwedishRedhead)
    I was quite worried, it is a very common condition (I won't name it but a 12 year old would have heard of it)
    I was in hospital the evening after an operation and an old eastern European nurse was on duty. I asked her for something but the silly woman had no idea what I was saying and could barely formulate English sentences herself. After about 5 mins of faffing a Scottish nurse understood in 2 secs and resolved the problem.

    I'm sorry but unless you're in a small minority of roles that requires absolutely no communication or understanding e.g. cleaner perhaps, every employee, especially in the NHS, should have absolutely no issues understanding English. That's a very basic requirement.

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    (Original post by SwedishRedhead)
    How much would juniors be earning per hour after these changes?

    I am considering applying for Medicine as a mature student
    It will depend on the doctor, the hours their individual employer makes them work, and some details of the changes that haven't been disclosed yet.
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    (Original post by justag)
    I was in hospital the evening after an operation and an old eastern European nurse was on duty. I asked her for something but the silly woman had no idea what I was saying and could barely formulate English sentences herself. After about 5 mins of faffing a Scottish nurse understood in 2 secs and resolved the problem.

    I'm sorry but unless you're in a small minority of roles that requires absolutely no communication or understanding e.g. cleaner perhaps, every employee, especially in the NHS, should have absolutely no issues understanding English. That's a very basic requirement.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    TBH one of the reasons I am considering not becoming a doctor is because of a lot of lack of common sense in the NHS. Of course the UK does not have as high taxes as we do back home, so I am not expecting to work in a place with that level of care.

    But the way the NHS treats whistleblowers, is bureaucratic, covers up blunders is barbaric.
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    Ahh, I see! Even this is to do with immigration!

    Blame the government, don't be stupid and cowardly and blame the scapegoat.
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    (Original post by Most Competitive)
    I couldn't care less.

    I'm in favour of the government's proposals because they will deter people who are "in it for the perks" from doing medicine.
    yeah. how dare these people not want to be worked to the point where they are so bone shattered tired that they start making mistakes with peoples lives? The arrogance of them.

    (Original post by littlenorthernlass)
    Honestly, I think members of certain professions such as junior doctors, such as teachers, are treated so appallingly by the government that it is very important for them to show their disdain by marching or striking. They should not be shamed for doing so, but applauded. The government has no idea what it is like to work in such professions and insist on placing more and more pressure on them. Protesting is one of the only ways we can fight back.:sadnod:
    This. More cuts from Tories, instead of increasing the money by employing more, the Tories instead decide to force staff to work longer instead.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So why do you dislike the labour party so much when they are the party that defends these professions?

    "Protesting is one of the only ways we can fight back" Also you have no idea how left wing you sound :teehee:
    How is bringing in hundreds of thousands of people each year to undercut them defending them?

    I'm not saying it's good or bad but to suggest saturating their labour helps people is ludicrous.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    I guess you have never heard of the French then, they stormed into a board meeting, dragged the board members out and even tore one's shirt off and tied him up, all while yelling "we'll lay you off" (as the board wanted to lay off/sack a load of workers)

    I'd also presume the eggs comment is a joke, funny or not, about the previous people's assembly march in manchester where a tory went to the protesters, and held up a copy of the telegraph which had a photo of thatcher on the front, so one protester threw an egg at them.
    Given the behavior of some of those thugs at the Tory conference (eg. spitting at people who weren't even Tories but were journos, threatening to rape a woman etc etc) the guy you're responding to can be forgiven for his point. Add to that the way a lot of anti-democracy sorry I mean anti-austerity protestors after the election in May behaved (really really aggressively and also don't forget the cockroach (es) who graffed on the war memorial) and he's bang on the money.

    Also it says a lot about you the way you tried to justify the attacking of that guy.
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    (Original post by Most Competitive)
    In reality, professionals such as paramedics and firemen are probably the ones who are under the most stress at any given time. You don't see them complaining.

    Junior doctors think they've got it so hard when they actually haven't.
    The FBU regularly go on strike and paramedics are leaving in droves, it's so bad London ambulance service are trying to recruit from Australia.
 
 
 
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