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Ucas to enforce 'name-blind' applications to tackle racial bias watch

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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Rufus Fotherington-Smyth vs Mason Brown.

    Have fun here: http://www.netmums.com/pregnancy/g/t...y-names/146586
    (Original post by the bear)
    Gervase Twistleton-Wyckham-Ffynnes is not going to turn up wearing a fake gold chain and Tommy Hilfiger trackie.
    But your example names are funny only because they are exceptional. My point is that the majority of privately educated people from upper class backgrounds would not be caught out by a "name check", even if some would. And as a result it is not really an effective system.
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    There is no law stating you can have a "posh" name if and only if you are posh, and the vast majority of "posh" people do not have a title. Therefore it is not always possible to identify class based on name. So a system of positive bias based on identifying people by their name is not practical. Instead such decisions could be made far more simply by looking at their education history.
    Okay. I don't know how accurate their research is, but the The Guardian has an article about how having a "posh" name seems to help when applying to Oxbridge. (Of course, they have the interview process as well, but I'm sure the data can be applied to other Russell Groups universities).

    And well, if I was a classist admissions officer and I had to choose between two applicants with equal grades and strength in related extra-circulars, I would go for "Tarquin Spencer-Williamson" and not Cortnie Sprott (?).
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    (Original post by somnacin)
    Okay. I don't know how accurate their research is, but the The Guardian has an article about how having a "posh" name seems to help when applying to Oxbridge. (Of course, they have the interview process as well, but I'm sure the data can be applied to other Russell Groups universities).

    And well, if I was a classist admissions officer and I had to choose between two applicants with equal grades and strength in related extra-circulars, I would go for "Tarquin Spencer-Williamson" and not Cortnie Sprott (?).
    In such a situation a name-blind system would presumably be of benefit to "Cortnie Sprott".

    Perhaps I have misunderstood your initial point, but that is a contradiction. You initially stated that a name-blind system would advantage the Tarquin Spencer-Williamson types, whilst now you are saying that a name-blind system would disadvantage them.
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    My point is that the majority of privately educated people from upper class backgrounds would not be caught out by a "name check", even if some would.
    Right, some names from Tatler Bystander

    Lady Kitty Spencer, Cosmia Benson-Colpi, Matthew Willamson, Lily Cayzer-Colvin, Dree Hemingway, Lucy Walch, Gyles Brandreth...

    To me, they sound rather posh
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    (Original post by somnacin)
    Right, some names from Tatler Bystander

    Lady Kitty Spencer, Cosmia Benson-Colpi, Matthew Willamson, Lily Cayzer-Colvin, Dree Hemingway, Lucy Walch, Gyles Brandreth...

    To me, they sound rather posh
    Yes, they are rather posh :-) But you are missing my point again. There will be people privately educated well off people who DO NOT have names like this. And therefore a name based system for positive discrimination is just not going to work. Which is why I think positive discrimination based on education history, combined with a name-blind trial, is a good idea.
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    I
    Perhaps I have misunderstood your initial point, but that is a contradiction. You initially stated that a name-blind system would advantage the Tarquin Spencer-Williamson types, whilst now you are saying that a name-blind system would disadvantage them.
    My original point is that positive discrimination helps the lower classes and racial minorities. So with this gone - by implementing a system that nobody knows the applicant's names, will actually be beneficial to the people that are already favoured.

    I'm actually confused - are we on the same page?
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    (Original post by somnacin)
    My original point is that positive discrimination helps the lower classes and racial minorities. So with this gone - by implementing a system that nobody knows the applicant's names, will actually be beneficial to the people that are already favoured.

    I'm actually confused - are we on the same page?
    I think we may not be understanding each other :-) I also agree positive discrimination is important so as to ensure all people get equal opportunities.

    However I thought your original post was saying that if we removed names from applications then universities could not identify who to give contextual offers to and hence this would benefit people from richer backgrounds. But unis do not use names to do this, they use contextual data such as the performance of the applicants schools and how they compared to the average there.
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    I think we may not be understanding each other :-) I also agree positive discrimination is important so as to ensure all people get equal opportunities.

    However I thought your original post was saying that if we removed names from applications then universities could not identify who to give contextual offers to and hence this would benefit people from richer backgrounds. But unis do not use names to do this, they use contextual data such as the performance of the applicants schools and how they compared to the average there.
    Ah, I see now!

    Yes, I agree that my original point on names was weak but not entirely implausible, so I added in that ethnic minorities will be influenced by this new policy too in my next reply.

    So I think we can agree to this: positive discrimination for racial minorities and for low performing schools?
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    (Original post by somnacin)
    Ah, I see now!

    Yes, I agree that my original point on names was weak, so I added in that ethnic minorities will be influenced by this new policy too in my next reply.

    So I think we can agree to this: positive discrimination for racial minorities and for low performing schools?
    Yes.

    EDIT to respond to your edit: Indeed it is not entirely implausible, I just think too many people would "slip through the net" with that system.
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    How do you identify class from someone's name?
    Benedict Barrington-Smythe vs Barry Smith.

    Fairly easily.

    EDIT: Just seen your earlier reply.
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    (Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
    Benedict Barrington-Smythe vs Barry Smith.

    Fairly easily.
    I suggest you read my other posts.

    EDIT: Oh right fair enough :-)
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    It is great idea but there is still going to be an issue once it gets to interview stage.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Absolutely not. It's far easier to be racist to a name on one of 1000 sheets of paper on a Friday afternoon. When seeing someone at interview there is a personal connection which often transcends racism.

    My nan like most old people is a bit racist but she loved the Indian family who lived next door to her, the Chinese at the chippy and her black carer, every time you actually meet them they're just another person.

    Also in an interview even if the interviewer is still disposed to reject you you at least have a chance to acquit yourself by deploying charm.

    I can see absolutely no case against anonymised CVs/UCAS at entry level in particular (i.e. no professional reputation for the name to carry).
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    The applications won't be 'name-blind'. The admissions officers will still be able to see everyone's names. It's just a lie, would be silly to believe the media. Political correctness gone too far.
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    I genuinely don't think it's a bad idea. If you think about it, some people do have a bias towards more anglo-centric sounding names. For example, do you really think that a tired admissions tutor, who has thousands of applications to deal with, would not have some sort of bias towards someone called Emily compared to someone called Lakisha? (No offence to anyone called Lakisha).
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    (Original post by 16Characters....)
    How do you identify class from someone's name?
    Twitter legend, reality star, MEP candidate, television personality, columnist Ms Katie Olivia Hopkins BSc (Exeter) says 'hi'.
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    They should somehow make the number not appear until after, to remove bias against nicer numbers.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    They should somehow make the number not appear until after, to remove bias against nicer numbers.
    Honestly, I would not consider my preference, but would prefer certain numbers over others if I was in that job.
    (i.e. p.s. I'm not being sarcastic or mocking.)
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    Imagine the scene at the University Council meeting at Loughborough University circa 1970.

    The Vice Chancellor: "Right, we want more northern mixed race kids from secondary modern schools and we want them to read arty farty subjects. How are we going to achieve this?"

    Admissions Tutor: I know! We will make offers to everyone called Sebastian.
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    I think it's worth trying, any inference a university takes from the name of a candidate should be avoided.
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    (Original post by somnacin)
    Hmm. I think this will actually help the middle / upper class, as universities will no longer take positive discrimination into consideration.
    Contextual factors can still be taken into consideration without a name. It's perfectly possible to have a UCAS form reading 'Candidate #06754 attends a school ranking in the bottom 40 percent of English state schools and has been in receipt of free school meals since 2012.'
 
 
 
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