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Hilarious anti-semitic RT propaganda watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Ha, very true. A lot of their supposed news output comes across like tinfoil-hat ready conspiradroid tosh, so it's hard to tell the difference.
    Indeed. What I find quite sinister is that RT markets itself as a kind of progressive news channel, so they give a lot of airtime to movements like Occupy, to tax justice campaigners and the like. And they know people on that part of the left are often quite anti-American so they promote themselves in that vein.

    What is laughable about that is that Putin is a fascist. He's homophobic, he and his cronies are extremely corrupt and hyper-capitalistic in their exploitation of people and resources. The loyalty to Russia for many on the European left is strange, but I think it comes from two sources. The first is an almost nostalgic left-over feeling of loyalty to the former Soviet Union. And the second is that because Russia appears to be "standing up" to America, it attracts some left-wing support.

    The problem, of course, is that they swallow hook, line and sinker a lot of completely bogus information about Syria and Ukraine, and they are willing to engage in the most astonishing mental gymnastics (for example, when the US was bombing ISIS they claim that bombing only ever leads to more terrorism. But when Russia starts bombing, and they aren't even really bombing ISIS, these same people suddenly start shrieking in delight at the Russian bombing, and almost frothing at the mouth saying "Kill those Islamist terrorists").

    It is very disappointing that so many on the left will ally themselves to a fascistic homophobe like Putin.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Islamofasicsts? Oh do me a favour.
    I'm incredibly outspoken on the UK's relationship with Saudi Arabia, I am incredibly critical fo Hezbollah and Hamas but you seem to think it's a football match where you have to choose a side.
    If anything, you are the one who thinks this is about choosing sides, and thus you criticise Israel in the most vitriolic, conspiratorial terms.

    I've not 'turned on you' but you have an unhealthy obsession with Jews. You strike me as a wannabe Jew.
    You're swinging wildly, and making yourself look silly. If I wanted to be Jewish I could, given my descent comes from my Mum's side. I don't want to be Jewish, but it's perfectly natural to take an interest in my heritage. I've travelled to Israel several times and I have friends there, so naturally I am much more sensible about viewing them as people rather than "Evil Zionist oppressors".

    I'm perfectly comfortable being predominantly Anglo-Saxon wasp with some Jewish blood and an atheist/anti-theist worldview, and I'm perfectly comfortable with my interaction with my Jewish and Israeli friends. I also have a Saudi friend who had dinner with two of my Israeli friends when they were in London, and we had a brilliant time and the drinking went late into the night. That's because we are all emphatic atheists and we oppose all forms of clerical fascism. I suppose that kind of fraternal connection, irrespective of background, gender, sexuality and based on ideas is foreign to your parochial sensibilities.

    It is notable that my exploration of part of my heritage, the fact I'm non Jewish and I have Jewish (and culturally Muslim) friends seems to disturb and anger you. Merely pointing out those things I've down caused you to call me a "wannabe Jew". It reminds me of how southern racists in the US would sometimes call progressives a "****** lover" for having black friends.

    Nowhere near a majority of my posts are about Judaism or Israel. But pretty much every post I've seen you make on this subject starts out "As a Jew", as if that is relevant. It clearly weighs heavily on you.

    Being raised and brought up as Jewish, I can tell you that within the Jewish community there is a HUGE victim mentality. So many think everyone hates us and massively goes out looking for isolated incidents of antisemitism and blowing them out of all proportion. Many says things such as 'anti zionism is just masked antisemitism' in fact that's the number one line of defence.
    What you call a victim mentality, I call an understandable psychological defence mechanism given six million Jews were slaughtered in an attempted genocide in living memory. That's not some origin myth or a novel, it actually happened. There are still people alive today who were in the camps. It is understandable, given the extreme hatred many people have against Jews, for them to be quite sensitive (and sometimes oversensitve). But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you, and that is the case with Jews.

    Now you seem to be quite Islamaphobic to be perfectly honest and for some reason share in that victim mentality that so many have. Quite frankly we can stand on our own two feet, we can take care of ourselves.

    Cheers.
    When you say "We", I'm sorry but you are an individual. You aren't all Jews. I'm quite happy to speak to my Jewish friends and cousins about their views. You don't get a veto on what other people think.

    And unfortunately, like many on the far left, you are so desperate to prove you are a "good Jew" (in the eyes of your far left friends) that you go far beyond what is rational in criticising Israel and now in criticising Jewish people too. You obviously have some issues surrounding your sense of your own Judaism, I'm not going to delve into that.

    But equally, you shouldn't inflict that on the rest of us.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The Guardianista's view of the world is now even more black and white than the average right-wing conservative's. They love to placate others about how people are complex, and that everyone has good in them. Oh yes they'll surely believe that members of criminal gangs (as long as they're from impoverished areas), pederasts, and Islamic extremists have good in them. Yes, the Guardianista will love to tell you that no one is pure evil....

    EXCEPT:

    Israelis
    Bankers
    Rupert Murdoch
    Disney
    CEOs of multinational companies
    Zionists
    Fox News
    Men's Rights Activists
    Fundamentalist Christians
    The Daily Telegraph
    Pro-lifers
    Tea Party supporters
    Sky News
    The Tories
    The Republican Party
    The Sun
    UKIP
    Pornographers
    Islamophobes
    The Daily Mail
    Libertarians
    Conservatives
    Capitalists
    Global warming deniers
    Homophobes
    White supremacists (unless from an impoverished background)
    Mothers who choose to stay at home
    UKIP
    Non-organic farmers
    Grammar school students and teachers
    Private school students and teachers
    SUV drivers
    Oil companies
    Gun owners
    Could not have put it better myself. They will defend Islamic terrorists, IRA terrorists, murderers, perhaps the most evil scum in this world but they regard someone like myself- a UKIP voter as the worst evil that has tread foot on this earth. Strange how their minds work
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    I'm not sure what his problem is? He accuses me of being obsessed with anti-semitism (even though it hardly predominates in the subjects I discuss). And yet I have barely seen any comment he makes where he does not pull out the "I'm Jewish therefore I get to be the arbiter of acceptability on views of Israel".Gilad Atzmon is also Jewish, and he's an outright Holocaust denier and a very clear self-hater. His Judaism is hardly a conclusive argument against his opponent
    He's really emotionally unstable, whenever I see his posts it's either him making really personal insults towards other users or him giving his 'I'm Jewish and therefore my criticism of Israel has more validity' speech.

    Bornblue
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    He's really emotionally unstable, whenever I see his posts it's either him making really personal insults towards other users or him giving his 'I'm Jewish and therefore my criticism of Israel has more validity' speech.

    Bornblue
    Well said.

    He called me a "wannabe Jew" due to the fact I take some interest in my part-Jewish heritage. I think he has some issues around his identity (as on the far left they often have to prove they are a "good Jew" and thus be "more Palestinian than the Palestinians" ).

    I think my response to him three comments up (comment 22) made the point and hopefully he will be less inclined to another one of these little interventions
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    Well said.

    He called me a "wannabe Jew" due to the fact I take some interest in my part-Jewish heritage. I think he has some issues around his identity (as on the far left they often have to prove they are a "good Jew" and thus be "more Palestinian than the Palestinians" ).

    I think my response to him three comments up (comment 22) made the point and hopefully he will be less inclined to another one of these little interventions
    Exactly, he should either stick to the argument at hand or piss off.

    You actually do have a point; two days ago there was a thread claiming that IS/Daesh was an Israeli/CIA conspiracy, today a thread today asking if Israel has killed more Muslims than the Nazis did Jews as well as this very thread, there are clearly many people who hold negative feeling towards the Jewish people.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    Could not have put it better myself. They will defend Islamic terrorists, IRA terrorists, murderers, perhaps the most evil scum in this world but they regard someone like myself- a UKIP voter as the worst evil that has tread foot on this earth. Strange how their minds work
    They are also astonishingly hypocritical on foreign policy. During the 2000s when the US had many troops in Iraq and they were fighting Al-Qaeda in Iraq (the ISIS precursor organisation), many on the far left praised the "Iraqi resistance" and justified their Islamist ideology on the basis that an authoritarian regime would cause radicalisation. They also criticised the US whenever it bombed targets, saying bombing always creates more terrorists.

    But suddenly, with Assad and the Russian intervention, they depict themselves as being emphatically opposed to "Islamist terrorism". They deny the fact that the authoritarian regime of Assad may have radicalised the "resistance" (along with the fact Assad released thousands of Islamists from his jails in 2011 to create a jihadi resistance he could use to tar the rest).

    And now that Russia is bombing targets in Syria (very few ISIS targets, mainly FSA and other groups), they are positively shrieking with delight at this bombing, frothing at the mouth saying "Yeah! Kill the terrorists!" and claiming that their bombing is extremely effective (even though the Russian Air Force has bombed four Syrian hospitals, that unlike the Americans the Russian Air Force has been dropping unguided bombs from 15,000 feet that are pretty much guaranteed not to actually hit their target and can only really be used for terror bombing of civilian populations).

    Their hypocrisy is mindblowing. They will adopt any position, support any fascist/terrorist group, as long as that group is opposed to the Americans.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    They are also astonishingly hypocritical on foreign policy. During the 2000s when the US had many troops in Iraq and they were fighting Al-Qaeda in Iraq (the ISIS precursor organisation), many on the far left praised the "Iraqi resistance" and justified their Islamist ideology on the basis that an authoritarian regime would cause radicalisation. They also criticised the US whenever it bombed targets, saying bombing always creates more terrorists.

    But suddenly, with Assad and the Russian intervention, they depict themselves as being emphatically opposed to "Islamist terrorism". They deny the fact that the authoritarian regime of Assad may have radicalised the "resistance" (along with the fact Assad released thousands of Islamists from his jails in 2011 to create a jihadi resistance he could use to tar the rest).

    And now that Russia is bombing targets in Syria (very few ISIS targets, mainly FSA and other groups), they are positively shrieking with delight at this bombing, frothing at the mouth saying "Yeah! Kill the terrorists!" and claiming that their bombing is extremely effective (even though the Russian Air Force has bombed four Syrian hospitals, that unlike the Americans the Russian Air Force has been dropping unguided bombs from 15,000 feet that are pretty much guaranteed not to actually hit their target and can only really be used for terror bombing of civilian populations).

    Their hypocrisy is mindblowing. They will adopt any position, support any fascist/terrorist group, as long as that group is opposed to the Americans.
    I can't stand the Putin government, so I'm with you on a lot of that.

    I think some people on the Left are foolish enough to think that Putin's fake post-Soviet 'neo-Sovietism' is some sort of reawakening of old style Communism and so they mistake naked capitalist imperialism in a different flavour for their hankerings for a past Soviet utopia. (That existed for about 5 minutes in the early Bolshevik days and briefly again under Lenin's NEP.)

    The fact that Putin is ex-KGB adds insult to injury. You would think that the old left had learned its lessons from the past, but it really is hard to get some people to face reality. There are even people around who think Maoism is still in charge in China!

    That said, I think a small part of Putin/RT's coverage is worthwhile, if only for the fact that it gives a different view - whatever the motives. For that reason, I regularly skim across the propaganda of CCTV, France TV, RT, CNN, etc, just to get a feel for what they are all saying. Even Vatican news can be interesting. :teehee:

    There's a strand of what RT says about US exceptionalism and their mania for imposing their law everywhere that does ring true, even though RT ignore all the bad things that happen under Putin, they can still be right sometimes. It is offensive the way US courts and government agencies assume their writ runs everywhere. The highly unbalanced US-UK extradition arrangements being a case in point.
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    SignFrom Dog you can be very antagonistic and you do bring up the anti-antisemitism a lot and accuse mostly everyone of it due to affiliation with "the antisemitic left". Or when they are a Jewish lefty like BornBlue they are adopting some kind of grovelling approach to be aloud in and need to prove their antisemitic credentials by supporting Hamas and that he is a useful Jewish idiot... The kind of problems you talk about do exist but you just go into the other end of it and accuse everyone of being racist against Jews.

    I didn't even realize BornBlue was Jewish until he brought it up one time when someone called him antisemitic for criticizing Israel. Which, if I was Jewish, I'd bring up a lot when faced with such accusations.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    If anything, you are the one who thinks this is about choosing sides, and thus you criticise Israel in the most vitriolic, conspiratorial terms.



    You're swinging wildly, and making yourself look silly. If I wanted to be Jewish I could, given my descent comes from my Mum's side. I don't want to be Jewish, but it's perfectly natural to take an interest in my heritage. I've travelled to Israel several times and I have friends there, so naturally I am much more sensible about viewing them as people rather than "Evil Zionist oppressors".

    I'm perfectly comfortable being predominantly Anglo-Saxon wasp with some Jewish blood and an atheist/anti-theist worldview, and I'm perfectly comfortable with my interaction with my Jewish and Israeli friends. I also have a Saudi friend who had dinner with two of my Israeli friends when they were in London, and we had a brilliant time and the drinking went late into the night. That's because we are all emphatic atheists and we oppose all forms of clerical fascism. I suppose that kind of fraternal connection, irrespective of background, gender, sexuality and based on ideas is foreign to your parochial sensibilities.

    It is notable that my exploration of part of my heritage, the fact I'm non Jewish and I have Jewish (and culturally Muslim) friends seems to disturb and anger you. Merely pointing out those things I've down caused you to call me a "wannabe Jew". It reminds me of how southern racists in the US would sometimes call progressives a "****** lover" for having black friends.

    Nowhere near a majority of my posts are about Judaism or Israel. But pretty much every post I've seen you make on this subject starts out "As a Jew", as if that is relevant. It clearly weighs heavily on you.



    What you call a victim mentality, I call an understandable psychological defence mechanism given six million Jews were slaughtered in an attempted genocide in living memory. That's not some origin myth or a novel, it actually happened. There are still people alive today who were in the camps. It is understandable, given the extreme hatred many people have against Jews, for them to be quite sensitive (and sometimes oversensitve). But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you, and that is the case with Jews.



    When you say "We", I'm sorry but you are an individual. You aren't all Jews. I'm quite happy to speak to my Jewish friends and cousins about their views. You don't get a veto on what other people think.

    And unfortunately, like many on the far left, you are so desperate to prove you are a "good Jew" (in the eyes of your far left friends) that you go far beyond what is rational in criticising Israel and now in criticising Jewish people too. You obviously have some issues surrounding your sense of your own Judaism, I'm not going to delve into that.

    But equally, you shouldn't inflict that on the rest of us.
    I'm not on the far left and I criticise Hamas and Hezbollah as I do Israel.
    You like so many on the right seem to think all Jews have a moral duty to support Israel and you accuse anyone who dares speak out as being anti-Semitic or a self - hating jew.
    There is a clear victim mentality within the Jewish community which is prevalent in other communities too. But as a Jew I find it immensely patronising and unhelpful for you to take an absolute obsession with anti semitism to the point that you accuse anyone who speaks out against Israel as being anti Semitic.

    I'm not trying to prove anything - I say what I think. Israel like Hamas have Carried out brutal, heinous crime and slaughtered civilians. They are both awful yet you see only one side.


    You have no right to speak on behalf of Jews, just as I don't. And you have no right to undermine real anti semitism by throwing around the accusation like it's going out of fashion.

    And for your final point, I'm an atheist too. It seems weird that you're an atheist but support a religious group so strongly.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    Exactly, he should either stick to the argument at hand or piss off.

    You actually do have a point; two days ago there was a thread claiming that IS/Daesh was an Israeli/CIA conspiracy, today a thread today asking if Israel has killed more Muslims than the Nazis did Jews as well as this very thread, there are clearly many people who hold negative feeling towards the Jewish people.
    Agreed. Does anyone doubt that if Israelis were Muslim, that there would be anything like the hyper-obsessive focus on Israel? When Egypt and Jordan controlled Gaza and the West Bank prior to the 67 war, not only did the Palestinians make no move towards self-government (no attacks against Egyptian soldiers, no protests, no demands) but the PLO led by Arafat specifically declared in their 1964 charter that they cede Gaza and the West Bank to Egypt and Jordan respectively.

    They declared that their focus was on expelled "Al-Yehud" from its 1948 borders. A lot of the rhetoric against Israel in the Arab world focuses on the fact they are Jewish. Thus I do think it is relevant and fair to point out that a lot of the obsession with Israel has a basis in anti-semitism. I think that the undoubtedly anti-semitic social system in Europe and the Middle East is what led the Jews to yearn for their own state, and eventually the Holocaust in Europe and the pogroms and dhimmi status in the Middle East pushed the Jews almost like the meat in the sandwich between the two pieces of bread; Europe and the Islamic world.

    And as I pointed out on the thread about Palestinian casualties, about 15,000 Palestinians have been killed over 60 years. That really puts things into perspective. If Israelis were Muslims, I don't think we would have such a ubiquitous pro-Palestinian movement
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    They are also astonishingly hypocritical on foreign policy. During the 2000s when the US had many troops in Iraq and they were fighting Al-Qaeda in Iraq (the ISIS precursor organisation), many on the far left praised the "Iraqi resistance" and justified their Islamist ideology on the basis that an authoritarian regime would cause radicalisation. They also criticised the US whenever it bombed targets, saying bombing always creates more terrorists.

    But suddenly, with Assad and the Russian intervention, they depict themselves as being emphatically opposed to "Islamist terrorism". They deny the fact that the authoritarian regime of Assad may have radicalised the "resistance" (along with the fact Assad released thousands of Islamists from his jails in 2011 to create a jihadi resistance he could use to tar the rest).
    I agree with that.

    But I want to be able to say I don't support America or Israel bombing Hospitals, or god forbid disagree with you, without being accused of supporting Putin's Russia, supporting ISIS or being antisemitic which is what often happens.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    That said, I think a small part of Putin/RT's coverage is worthwhile, if only for the fact that it gives a different view - whatever the motives. For that reason, I regularly skim across the propaganda of CCTV, France TV, RT, CNN, etc, just to get a feel for what they are all saying. Even Vatican news can be interesting. :teehee:
    That's just the 'focus on your enemies crimes, ignore you own' part of the propaganda machine in work.

    it just so happens to get to the truth for all the wrong reasons.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm not on the far left and I criticise Hamas and Hezbollah as I do Israel.
    You like so many on the right
    We're just out of the gates and you're already tripping over your shoelaces. I'm a socialist. But I'm also not a member of the regressive left; I oppose all forms of fascism, especially the clerical fascism of Islam. I also oppose the far-right rabbis of the settlements who incited the murder of Rabin and hanker after a Greater Israel.

    seem to think all Jews have a moral duty to support Israel
    I don't think that and I've never said that. I think all people should look at the Israel-Palestine conflict with empathy for both sides, and an understanding of their respective legitimate claims and grievances. Unlike many on the left, I do not think that only the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and I'm not willing to compare Israelis to Nazis or say that Zionism is apartheid or fascism when it clearly is not.

    and you accuse anyone who dares speak out as being anti-Semitic
    This thread had nothing to do with Israel at the start. I pointed out that it is anti-semitic to assert that speaking Hebrew is sinister and evidence of a conspiracy. You then rushed in all guns blazing, with the usual "As a Jew, I think.." and making unsupportable accusations against me. In your haste, you failed to actually determine what the discussion was about or whether the accusation of anti-semitism was justifiable.

    or a self - hating jew.
    You keep bringing up your Jewishness as if to say that being a Jew means your opinion on Israel is automatically correct. Equally, you accuse me of being a "wannabe Jew" simply for (1) taking an interest in my heritage, and (2) having Israeli friends. That seems like the equal and opposite accusation to that of self-hating Jew

    But as a Jew I find it immensely patronising and unhelpful for you to take an absolute obsession with anti semitism to the point that you accuse anyone who speaks out against Israel as being anti Semitic
    You are too emotionally invested in this debate if you find it personally patronising. And I don't accuse anyone who speaks out against Israel as being anti-semitic, you are resorting to outrageous hyperbole and simply making things up because your argument is on such shakey ground.

    As a progressive it is entirely legitimate for me to emphatically oppose anti-semitism. It is a pernicious and deeply dangerous form of hatred, and as an individual Jewish person, you don't get to excuse it or say that you don't appreciate someone else taking a strong stand against it. Your arguments might have more weight if I did actually accuse anyone who speaks against Israel of being an anti-semite, but that has never been my position and your comments sound a bit desperate in claiming I did.

    When Israel forged British passports to assassinate a Hamas man, when it spies on its allies, when it permits further settlement, I speak out against it in the strongest possible terms. I have clearly said before, in public and online (including on websites like Harry's Place where the crowed is pro-Israel generally) that I think Israel often abuses the friendship of its allies, that it is sometimes ungrateful and that is is not doing nearly enough to bring about a settlement.

    I have never claimed any and all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (though a heck of a lot of it is motivated by it). I am perfectly comfortable as a non-Jew with Jewish heritage taking an interest in my ancestors and what they believed. I am perfectly comfortable having Jewish and Israeli friends. And as a progressive I am perfectly comfortable calling out real anti-semitism when I see it, because everyone has an interest in tackling it.

    I see that there are some in the Jewish community who are hypersensitive, even oversensitive, to it. There are some on the Israeli and Jewish right who call criticism of the settlements anti-semitic, and claim all Arabs hate Jews and so Israel should treat them as they wish. I find that revolting. But I'm not going to be shamed out of standing up for Israel's right to exist or calling out real anti-semites and bigots on the regressive left.

    You have no right to speak on behalf of Jews, just as I don't. And you have no right to undermine real anti semitism by throwing around the accusation like it's going out of fashion.
    You seem to have forgotten what this thread is actually about, and what brought about the accusation. If you say that I don't have a right as a non-Jew to call out anti-semitism, then why are you allowed to make accusations of "Islamophobia"?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    SignFrom Dog you can be very antagonistic and you do bring up the anti-antisemitism a lot and accuse mostly everyone of it due to affiliation with "the antisemitic left". Or when they are a Jewish lefty like BornBlue they are adopting some kind of grovelling approach to be aloud in and need to prove their antisemitic credentials by supporting Hamas and that he is a useful Jewish idiot... The kind of problems you talk about do exist but you just go into the other end of it and accuse everyone of being racist against Jews.

    I didn't even realize BornBlue was Jewish until he brought it up one time when someone called him antisemitic for criticizing Israel. Which, if I was Jewish, I'd bring up a lot when faced with such accusations.
    What are you talking about? He brings it up all the time in a transparent attempt to make people think they can't dare criticise his views on the subject.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I agree with that.

    But I want to be able to say I don't support America or Israel bombing Hospitals, or god forbid disagree with you, without being accused of supporting Putin's Russia, supporting ISIS or being antisemitic which is what often happens.
    I don't automatically accuse people of being supporters of Putin or anti-semites based on them taking the opposite position. I base it on facts.

    Surely you are not blind to the fact that there is a huge strain of Putin sympathisers on the left these days? They see Putin as "standing up" to the West, and their positions are completely flexible depending on whether it was the US or Russia that did the action in question.

    I'm not a mindless opponent of Russia. For example, Russia was in the right in the Georgian War of 2008. I also strongly criticise the Israeli right and settlements. But many on the left these days will support whatever Russia does, you can hear it in their parroting RT talking points on Ukraine (claiming that anyone in /Ukraine not supporting the separatists is a Nazi, that they always bring up Victoria Nuland as if that was a real argument or she is some evil genius.

    There is a very unpleasant crossover between far-left and far-right tendencies of opposition to the EU, flattery or support of Putin tied in with conspiracies about population control etc.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    We're just out of the gates and you're already tripping over your shoelaces. I'm a socialist. But I'm also not a member of the regressive left; I oppose all forms of fascism, especially the clerical fascism of Islam. I also oppose the far-right rabbis of the settlements who incited the murder of Rabin and hanker after a Greater Israel.



    I don't think that and I've never said that. I think all people should look at the Israel-Palestine conflict with empathy for both sides, and an understanding of their respective legitimate claims and grievances. Unlike many on the left, I do not think that only the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and I'm not willing to compare Israelis to Nazis or say that Zionism is apartheid or fascism when it clearly is not.



    This thread had nothing to do with Israel at the start. I pointed out that it is anti-semitic to assert that speaking Hebrew is sinister and evidence of a conspiracy. You then rushed in all guns blazing, with the usual "As a Jew, I think.." and making unsupportable accusations against me. In your haste, you failed to actually determine what the discussion was about or whether the accusation of anti-semitism was justifiable.



    You keep bringing up your Jewishness as if to say that being a Jew means your opinion on Israel is automatically correct. Equally, you accuse me of being a "wannabe Jew" simply for (1) taking an interest in my heritage, and (2) having Israeli friends. That seems like the equal and opposite accusation to that of self-hating Jew



    You are too emotionally invested in this debate if you find it personally patronising. And I don't accuse anyone who speaks out against Israel as being anti-semitic, you are resorting to outrageous hyperbole and simply making things up because your argument is on such shakey ground.

    As a progressive it is entirely legitimate for me to emphatically oppose anti-semitism. It is a pernicious and deeply dangerous form of hatred, and as an individual Jewish person, you don't get to excuse it or say that you don't appreciate someone else taking a strong stand against it. Your arguments might have more weight if I did actually accuse anyone who speaks against Israel of being an anti-semite, but that has never been my position and your comments sound a bit desperate in claiming I did.

    When Israel forged British passports to assassinate a Hamas man, when it spies on its allies, when it permits further settlement, I speak out against it in the strongest possible terms. I have clearly said before, in public and online (including on websites like Harry's Place where the crowed is pro-Israel generally) that I think Israel often abuses the friendship of its allies, that it is sometimes ungrateful and that is is not doing nearly enough to bring about a settlement.

    I have never claimed any and all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (though a heck of a lot of it is motivated by it). I am perfectly comfortable as a non-Jew with Jewish heritage taking an interest in my ancestors and what they believed. I am perfectly comfortable having Jewish and Israeli friends. And as a progressive I am perfectly comfortable calling out real anti-semitism when I see it, because everyone has an interest in tackling it.

    I see that there are some in the Jewish community who are hypersensitive, even oversensitive, to it. There are some on the Israeli and Jewish right who call criticism of the settlements anti-semitic, and claim all Arabs hate Jews and so Israel should treat them as they wish. I find that revolting. But I'm not going to be shamed out of standing up for Israel's right to exist or calling out real anti-semites and bigots on the regressive left.



    You seem to have forgotten what this thread is actually about, and what brought about the accusation. If you say that I don't have a right as a non-Jew to call out anti-semitism, then why are you allowed to make accusations of "Islamophobia"?


    You're a socialist? Good one.
    You're whole mantra and narrative is that 'the left is the home of anti-semitism'. Firstly that's incredibly incorrect, I seem to remember a fairly right wing German leader who disliked Jews... (Oh wait, he didn't, it was all Mufti...)

    Yet when you find a lefty who dislikes Israel/zionism, to fit with your mantra you go for the ' oh well you're just trying to be accepted...' Or some rubbish. No, I am giving my own opinion regardless of my religion.

    If you want to see real anti semitism take a look at the far-right parties in Europe. Take a look at the far right parties here such as the BNP who denied the Holocaust. Anti-semitism predominantly comes from the right, not the left.

    The left are certainly more likely to criticise Israel, out of sympathy for the thousands of innocent civilians that the IDF kills bi-annually but in no way are they anti-semitic. Sure some ant-semites attach themselves to the left but that in no way is representative of the left than more so than saying the extremist Jews who burnt a Palestinain baby are representative of Jews...


    You have an obsession with anti-semitism, calling it out when it's not there which has the effect of making it more difficult to point out real anti-semtiism such as that on the right.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You're a socialist? Good one.
    Not only am I on the left, but I'm far more authentically of the left than the numerous posers and conspiracy theorists who crowd out that space these days. Unlike them, I actually have a genuine interest in and commitment to historical materialism and the dialectic; understanding history through trends, movements, material forces rather than the conspiratorial pseudo-occult and faintly Manichaean enthusiasms that characterise many on the left these days.

    You're whole mantra and narrative is that 'the left is the home of anti-semitism'.
    I typically say the far left, not the left. And yes, I don't see this as a football match where I only attack the opposition. I am critical of those on my own side because many of them are fascist sympathisers. I am not going to be silent when a leftist praises that homophobic douchebag Putin just because we both happen to be on the left side of the spectrum.

    Yet when you find a lefty who dislikes Israel/zionism, to fit with your mantra you go for the ' oh well you're just trying to be accepted...' Or some rubbish. No, I am giving my own opinion regardless of my religion.
    You say "Yet when you find a lefty". Do I say that in all conversations to all left-wing people? Or did you mean just you? You keep making up positions I've never actually adopted. I'm sorry but your arguments are incredibly weak and my patience is wavering. You keep consructing strawmen to knock them down; that isn't an indicator of intelligence or sincerity, it's first-class douchebaggery and I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who keeps making up positions I've never adopted in order to attack me.

    If you want to see real anti semitism take a look at the far-right parties in Europe. Take a look at the far right parties here such as the BNP who denied the Holocaust. Anti-semitism predominantly comes from the right, not the left.
    Ah yes, the usual far-left justifications. They are happy to no-platform the BNP and (rightly) criticise them. But when someone from the left or anti-zionist movement repeats the blood libel and supports a charter that calls for the death of all Jews worldwide? That is absolutely fine and we will roll out the red carpet. Frankly, it's pathetic to try to distract attention from left-wing anti-semitism by saying "the right does it too".

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same fabricated nonsense and making up positions I've never had in order to pick a fight and make an argument which is 1000 miles away from the actual original point of this thread. I'm bored of it. I'll leave it to the good judgment of TSRians to determine whose position they feel to be more justified.
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    (Original post by SignFromDog)
    Not only am I on the left, but I'm far more authentically of the left than the numerous posers and conspiracy theorists who crowd out that space these days. Unlike them, I actually have a genuine interest in and commitment to historical materialism and the dialectic; understanding history through trends, movements, material forces rather than the conspiratorial pseudo-occult and faintly Manichaean enthusiasms that characterise many on the left these days.



    I typically say the far left, not the left. And yes, I don't see this as a football match where I only attack the opposition. I am critical of those on my own side because many of them are fascist sympathisers. I am not going to be silent when a leftist praises that homophobic douchebag Putin just because we both happen to be on the left side of the spectrum.



    You say "Yet when you find a lefty". Do I say that in all conversations to all left-wing people? Or did you mean just you? You keep making up positions I've never actually adopted. I'm sorry but your arguments are incredibly weak and my patience is wavering. You keep consructing strawmen to knock them down; that isn't an indicator of intelligence or sincerity, it's first-class douchebaggery and I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who keeps making up positions I've never adopted in order to attack me.



    Ah yes, the usual far-left justifications. They are happy to no-platform the BNP and (rightly) criticise them. But when someone repeats the blood libel and supports a charter that calls for the death of all Jews worldwide? That is absolutely fine and we will roll out the red carpet. Frankly, it's pathetic to try to distract attention from left-wing anti-semitism by saying "the right does it too".

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same fabricated nonsense and making up positions I've never had in order to justify your nonsense. I'm bored of it. I'll leave it to the good judgment of TSRians to determine whose position they feel to be more justified.
    The left are not anti-semitic as you claim they are. And I don't know many on the left who love Putin as you claim.
    I'm not saying 'the right does it too' - I'm saying genuine anti-semitism is largely exclusive to the right, not the left.

    Anti zionism and anti-semitism are not connected. End of. And anyone who makes out they are is merely trying to do what you do and disallow any criticism of ISrael and being 'anti-semtic.'

    You're making up my positions now, I do not support Putin or Hamas and criticse both heavily

    But carry on with your mantra. Carry on slamming the left and turning a blind eye to those on the right. But let me say this, good luck if we ever see a rise of far-right parties again - then you'll see some real anti-semitism.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The left are not anti-semitic as you claim they are. And I don't know many on the left who love Putin as you claim.
    I'm not saying 'the right does it too' - I'm saying genuine anti-semitism is largely exclusive to the right, not the left.
    You keep saying "the left", as if I am referring to all of the left and as if you represent the left. You don't. Hardcore anti-zionism is a far left position. And turning a blind eye to anti-semitism is similarly a far left, not left-wing, position.

    The pride of place held by Gilad Atzmon and Stephen Sizer on the far left, along with the far left's support for Hamas and their rolling out the red carpet for Islamofascists, speaks for itself.

    Anti zionism and anti-semitism are not connected. End of.
    I can totally imagine you doing a z-snap when you said end of. In fact, it's not the end of. Many people's anti-zionism is motivated by anti-semitism, and a majority of anti-zionists are extremely murky on taking a clear stand on anti-semitism given their willingness to tolerate and welcome anti-semites into their movement.

    And anyone who makes out they are is merely trying to do what you do and disallow any criticism of ISrael and being 'anti-semtic'
    I have repeatedly outlined my own criticisms of Israel and made clear that I don't think criticism of Israel is anti-semitic in and of itself. You don't care, you just keep barreling on repeating the same old discredited points irrespective of where the conversation has actually gone.

    I'm sorry but it's clear that not only do you have no interest in having a genuine discussion, but you are either intellectually or emotionally incapable of having a genuine discussion.

    You're making up my positions now, I do not support Putin or Hamas and criticse both heavily
    You brought up my positions about the far left in general, and I pointed out my opposition to various positions taken by the far left. And now you whine you don't hold those positions. Don't bring the issue up in the first place if you don't want to discuss it.

    But carry on with your mantra. Carry on slamming the left and turning a blind eye to those on the right. But let me say this, good luck if we ever see a rise of far-right parties again - then you'll see some real anti-semitism.
    You really are utterly contemptible and a pathetic individual. The other people who said you have emotional problems are right, you clearly have massive issues and I can't unpick them for you. No matter how precisely I outline my position and no matter where the conversation you goes, you always come back to your victimhood mindset and your beloved strawmen, and keep barreling on criticising positions others haven't taken.

    Don't message me again.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    Exactly, he should either stick to the argument at hand or piss off.
    Completely. I had no idea how unstable he is. Not sure if you caught those last few exchanges between us, but it's clear that no matter how clearly one outlines their own position and how sincerely they try to clear up his misapprehensions, he just continues on with his strawmen and attacking positions that you've never even adopted.

    I think he might have some mental problems, I'm not going to respond to him in future.
 
 
 
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