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    (Original post by number23)
    I think if God exists they (gender neutral ftw) would be all-loving and want humans to be happy and not worry over details like sex before marriage, which, if it were SO important, should have been made more explicitly clear

    We can't just assume ethics
    Odd assumption to me, when it made us so flawed and violent, birth defects, giving cancer to little children... If there is a God, it isn't worthy of our worship.

    Agreed with that, make your own. Start with the Golden Rule.
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    (Original post by m3m)
    Are you christian?

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    Why does that matter? She is stating facts.
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    (Original post by m3m)
    Are you christian?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    No I'm a Muslim. I just went to a catholic secondary and now sixth form.

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Okay, but why is whatever the bible says law? How can we trust it was written by people in contact with god, not just some randomers who decided to magic up a couple of rules just for laughs? (obviously that wasn't the case, but still.)
    And secondly, what about a married couple that know that they are infertile and cannot have children? Should they stop having sex?
    Well if you are a practicing Christian then yes. However from your point of view, there isn't anything wrong with it. Just go with what you believe is right for you.
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    (Original post by iRealizediKing)
    Why does that matter? He is stating facts.
    It's a she. I was just wondering so calm down. Jeez. Coming out of nowhere
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    Odd assumption to me, when it made us so flawed and violent, birth defects, giving cancer to little children... If there is a God, it isn't worthy of our worship.

    Agreed with that, make your own. Start with the Golden Rule.
    Its not Gods fault. Its humans fault. God gave free will. Humans messed things up. with their mortal evil. That's why earth is such a mess. That's what I believe anyway. Do with that as you wish.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    Odd assumption to me, when it made us so flawed and violent, birth defects, giving cancer to little children... If there is a God, it isn't worthy of our worship.

    Agreed with that, make your own. Start with the Golden Rule.
    Fair point

    I guess the god of christianity is allloving so therefore would be wanting humans to be happy and not anatgoniseover unclear ethical ancient words

    Whether they exist, who knows

    I think the existence of God is a meaningless question
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    Have you considered reading other books?
    Beatrice Potter wrote some nice fairy storys too...
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    Since you've decided that you want to be more religious, let's presume that God exists.

    The rules set by God in the old testament are obviously the 10 commandments, which (aside from the first four which are all about respecting God) can be explained as:

    - respect your parents
    - don't kill
    - no adultery
    - don't steal
    - don't covet things that aren't yours (neighbours' wives, houses, asses, etc)

    I think we can all agree that these are pretty good rules for life; wouldn't humanity be great if we all followed these simple rules?

    In the new testament, the message becomes much simpler: Jesus turns up and says "love you neighbour as yourself" which kind of encompasses the commandments in a broad sense. Again, wouldn't it be good it we all followed that idea?


    The other rules which the Judaeo-Christian tradition gives us are ones decided by humans a very long time ago and many of them make sense for the culture in which they were created:

    - don't eat pork or shellfish = a good rule because these meats spoil easily and can lead to food poisoning

    - don't use contraception/masturbate = understandable because they want to maximise the number of people having children so that there will be more Christians born into the community

    - don't have sex before marriage = sensible, because that way you can be sure that your husband is the father of your children and you don't end up with lots of pregnant women with no men taking responsibility for them


    Of course, times have changed a lot over the past few thousand years. Fridges and freezers mean that we can eat sausages and oysters without worrying about getting ill and modern contraceptives mean that we have greater control than ever before about when we procreate and with whom.

    I consider myself to be religious because I believe in a higher power, even though I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile that with my rational mind. I think that the basic rules of Christianity are good: treating yourself and other people with respect is a good way to live your life.

    My problem with organised religion is that people get in the way of the loving message and corrupt it and try to use it to control other people or make them feel guilty.

    Do you think that an all-powerful, benevolent God would be upset because a happy, loving couple uses contraception so that they can have sex (thereby expressing their love for each other) without worrying about getting pregnant when it's the wrong time for them? I don't think so.

    My own situation is that I am unmarried, but have been with my boyfriend for almost five years. He is the only person I have had sex with and since we intend to be together (and eventually get married) for the rest of our lives, he is probably the only person I will ever have sex with. We love each other body and soul and are committed to leading the best lives we can for ourselves and each other. If God has an issue with that, then he's not a God I acknowledge.


    As for your initial question about sex before marriage, I think that only you can know what is right for you and I don't think that anyone has the right to judge you, no matter what you choose.
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    (Original post by Plumstone)
    Since you've decided that you want to be more religious, let's presume that God exists.

    The rules set by God in the old testament are obviously the 10 commandments, which (aside from the first four which are all about respecting God) can be explained as:

    - respect your parents
    - don't kill
    - no adultery
    - don't steal
    - don't covet things that aren't yours (neighbours' wives, houses, asses, etc)

    I think we can all agree that these are pretty good rules for life; wouldn't humanity be great if we all followed these simple rules?
    I don't want to sound arrogant, but I think I could better those. I'd whack a rule against rape, and one against slavery, in my top ten. I guess that means I've either got to accept idoltry is worse than rape, or not worship this God. Because I can't worship a God who is worse at making rules than I am.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    I don't want to sound arrogant, but I think I could better those. I'd whack a rule against rape, and one against slavery, in my top ten. I guess that means I've either got to accept idoltry is worse than rape, or not worship this God. Because I can't worship a God who is worse at making rules than I am.
    I agree with you completely, but since slavery was a normal part of the culture, it's understandable that a rule against it wouldn't be high up on their list of priorities.

    Rules about women's rights were also rather woolly back then - if a woman is considered to be your property, then you have the right to do whatever you like.

    The new testament does solve this with the rule about loving thy neighbour - if we all treated each other with the love and respect we would like to be shown ourselves, then crime, abuse, etc would all stop, wouldn't they?
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    (Original post by Plumstone)
    I agree with you completely, but since slavery was a normal part of the culture, it's understandable that a rule against it wouldn't be high up on their list of priorities.

    Rules about women's rights were also rather woolly back then - if a woman is considered to be your property, then you have the right to do whatever you like.

    The new testament does solve this with the rule about loving thy neighbour - if we all treated each other with the love and respect we would like to be shown ourselves, then crime, abuse, etc would all stop, wouldn't they?
    As an atheist raised Christian, I always thought this was a pretty weak defense. The whole point of religion is that it is supposed to provide eternal, universal truth. There's nothing saying "this needs updating every hundred years". Slavery is either moral, or it isn't. Rape is either a sin, or it isn't. If religion needs a secular women's rights campaign to tell it the difference between right or wrong, why on earth would anyone follow a religion?

    It's a good concept, but one that exists in pretty much every culture ever(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule ), so you can't give Christianity much credit for it.
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    #1

    (Original post by Plumstone)
    Since you've decided that you want to be more religious, let's presume that God exists.

    The rules set by God in the old testament are obviously the 10 commandments, which (aside from the first four which are all about respecting God) can be explained as:

    - respect your parents
    - don't kill
    - no adultery
    - don't steal
    - don't covet things that aren't yours (neighbours' wives, houses, asses, etc)

    I think we can all agree that these are pretty good rules for life; wouldn't humanity be great if we all followed these simple rules?

    In the new testament, the message becomes much simpler: Jesus turns up and says "love you neighbour as yourself" which kind of encompasses the commandments in a broad sense. Again, wouldn't it be good it we all followed that idea?


    The other rules which the Judaeo-Christian tradition gives us are ones decided by humans a very long time ago and many of them make sense for the culture in which they were created:

    - don't eat pork or shellfish = a good rule because these meats spoil easily and can lead to food poisoning

    - don't use contraception/masturbate = understandable because they want to maximise the number of people having children so that there will be more Christians born into the community

    - don't have sex before marriage = sensible, because that way you can be sure that your husband is the father of your children and you don't end up with lots of pregnant women with no men taking responsibility for them


    Of course, times have changed a lot over the past few thousand years. Fridges and freezers mean that we can eat sausages and oysters without worrying about getting ill and modern contraceptives mean that we have greater control than ever before about when we procreate and with whom.

    I consider myself to be religious because I believe in a higher power, even though I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile that with my rational mind. I think that the basic rules of Christianity are good: treating yourself and other people with respect is a good way to live your life.

    My problem with organised religion is that people get in the way of the loving message and corrupt it and try to use it to control other people or make them feel guilty.

    Do you think that an all-powerful, benevolent God would be upset because a happy, loving couple uses contraception so that they can have sex (thereby expressing their love for each other) without worrying about getting pregnant when it's the wrong time for them? I don't think so.

    My own situation is that I am unmarried, but have been with my boyfriend for almost five years. He is the only person I have had sex with and since we intend to be together (and eventually get married) for the rest of our lives, he is probably the only person I will ever have sex with. We love each other body and soul and are committed to leading the best lives we can for ourselves and each other. If God has an issue with that, then he's not a God I acknowledge.


    As for your initial question about sex before marriage, I think that only you can know what is right for you and I don't think that anyone has the right to judge you, no matter what you choose.
    Thank you so much for this, it was a perfect answer to my problem. I particularly agree with the bit in bold.

    I think what I'm going to do is what you've done- save it for long term committed relationships. Whilst I don't think sex should be something purely for marriage, I'm not the sort of girl who partakes in ONS.

    I can't thank you enough for this, it was perfect
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    As an atheist raised Christian, I always thought this was a pretty weak defense. The whole point of religion is that it is supposed to provide eternal, universal truth. There's nothing saying "this needs updating every hundred years". Slavery is either moral, or it isn't. Rape is either a sin, or it isn't. If religion needs a secular women's rights campaign to tell it the difference between right or wrong, why on earth would anyone follow a religion?

    It's a good concept, but one that exists in pretty much every culture ever(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule ), so you can't give Christianity much credit for it.
    I agree that an eternal, universal truth should be morally absolute, but that's not what organised religion is - it's just groups of people trying to find the best way of doing things. And obviously as people and society evolve, so does our interpretation of morality.

    As for your second point, I certainly don't claim that Christianity gets sole claim to the idea of loving your neighbour, but that doesn't mean that it's less of a good idea
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Thank you so much for this, it was a perfect answer to my problem. I particularly agree with the bit in bold.

    I think what I'm going to do is what you've done- save it for long term committed relationships. Whilst I don't think sex should be something purely for marriage, I'm not the sort of girl who partakes in ONS.

    I can't thank you enough for this, it was perfect
    Phew, what a relief!!! I started writing my reply just after you'd posted your question, but when I finally submitted my reply, I saw that loads of people had already posted much shorter replies and felt a bit silly for being so long winded.

    Nevertheless, I really wanted to explain my thoughts in detail because I understand your dilemma and I think people can be very judgmental - in both directions - on topics like this.

    I'm pleased I've been able to help.
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    (Original post by Plumstone)
    I agree that an eternal, universal truth should be morally absolute, but that's not what organised religion is - it's just groups of people trying to find the best way of doing things. And obviously as people and society evolve, so does our interpretation of morality.

    As for your second point, I certainly don't claim that Christianity gets sole claim to the idea of loving your neighbour, but that doesn't mean that it's less of a good idea
    But it's what the Bible is supposed to be, isn't it? It says you can sell your daughter into slavery. There's no asterisk saying "we'll review this one in a few hundred years, it does seem a bit weird". That is the law, the truth, forever. If you can question that, surely you can question anything? Should I love my neighbour? Did Jesus die on a cross? Otherwise you are just picking and choosing, and living as you would without the Bible. Your individual ethics are guiding you, not the Bible, you aren't following it at all. The ideas of evolving morality you refer to are modern, secular ideas, certainly not religious ones.

    It's a great idea. There's plenty admirable about Jesus Christ, whether you see him as real or largely fictional. But none of these ideas are needed for the modern world.
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    Here's what people said on a different site

    "My husband and I were each our firsts, and neither of us regret it. I'm thankful we were raised with such high standards and self respect." —Miranda Meidinger Stevens

    "All too often, we as a society jump into a sexual relationship. But when it comes down to what type of relationship you are wanting in the end, I wanted to make sure my husband loved all of me, my quirks, habits, everything, etc. I think that if you date someone long enough to get to know the real you, that just maybe it could possibly lengthen if not preserve the relationship forever. Everyone loves sex; make sure you find the right person before the right penis." —Kerri Torrez

    "Waited before my first marriage, total disaster. Don't recommend it ever." —Ivory Blossom

    "Yes I did wait for marriage before sex. For me it was very important to keep my virginity for the man I loved with all my heart, and to have sex on my wedding night for the first time was a bonus. It was an honor to be a virgin. I got married at age 24. Proud to have kept my virginity for marriage. It was my choice." —Liz Kubie

    "Sex is a learning experience for everyone, and if you both approach it as virgins, it's even more special because you're learning together! Sex is also NOT the most important thing in a marriage, though it's a wonderful perk." —Lesa Brackbill

    "We waited. So many relationships nowadays are based around sex. When that gets boring, what do you have? My husband and I wanted to make sure we were in love with each other, not our sex. We were together for three years, engaged for one year. The wedding night? Very exciting and amazing, as it should be! Not something you can get if you've already been intimate." —Leah Michelle McElroy

    "I am very glad I waited and don't regret waiting until marriage at 23. Everyone does what is right for them, however, in today's progressive society people who wait are scorned for their choice, whilst those who sleep around want to be free from judgment. Why can't both sides remain free from judgment? I never slept around—why should I be ridiculed for such? I did what was right for myself." —Michelle Nicole

    "I waited for my husband. I was raised believing that it was how God meant it to be, and I felt if there was a chance my marriage would be blessed because of it, I wanted that. As I grew up, I realized that I was only going to give my virginity to a man who truly valued and loved me. And until I met the man I married, no one before him was worth it to me. When my husband and I started dating, he said, "I won't be the reason you break the commitment you have made." And for four years, he never pressured me into changing my mind. We have been married three years, together seven, and I know I am blessed both by the man I call my husband and the fact that I don't carry the weight of past (sex-related) regrets." —Lindsey Romo

    Of course, not all of our commenters waited—or agreed that waiting to have sex was a top priority for them. Here are a few comments from some women who had a different take on the situation:

    "My true question to all of you saying, 'It is the best decision I (or we) have ever made'... How do you know it is the best decision if you have never experienced it with anyone else? That is like saying, 'Chili's is the best restaurant' without ever trying anywhere different." —Cara Maree Crotts

    My personal comment on the above comment by Cara would be, How do you know NOT waiting was the best decision you've ever made? There is more to relationship than sex..

    "Call me modern, but a women's virginity does not define her." —Vanessa Surtzy

    "I personally didn't wait until marriage, but I'm not a promiscuous person either—have had only one partner for years now. He might be my future husband, he might not. Either way, I don't think not waiting makes you anything less decent of a woman. My fear had always been that maybe if you wait until marriage, it may or may not work out in bed with that person and then you're already married and maybe wonder if it would be better with someone else? I don't know, just my opinion. But I respect everyone who does, and hey, if it worked out, great for you." —Issa Villacorta Diaz

    "Personally, I'm not buying a car before test-driving it. Respect yourself, be safe, and wait for love and a monogamous relationship. But wait for marriage? No thanks." —Kelly Pacillo Deen

    "I didn't wait, and I don't regret it. At 25, I have a beautiful blended family with three beautiful children. Marriage is not in the near future. Its not something that is a priority. Marriage does not define how much some one loves you, and neither does sex." —Julia Merrin

    My personal opinion would be to have a somewhat serious long term relationship which you can see blossoming into marriage and then have sex. You get to avoid people who want to use you sex too
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    But it's what the Bible is supposed to be, isn't it? It says you can sell your daughter into slavery. There's no asterisk saying "we'll review this one in a few hundred years, it does seem a bit weird". That is the law, the truth, forever. If you can question that, surely you can question anything? Should I love my neighbour? Did Jesus die on a cross? Otherwise you are just picking and choosing, and living as you would without the Bible. Your individual ethics are guiding you, not the Bible, you aren't following it at all. The ideas of evolving morality you refer to are modern, secular ideas, certainly not religious ones.

    It's a great idea. There's plenty admirable about Jesus Christ, whether you see him as real or largely fictional. But none of these ideas are needed for the modern world.
    Nobody with half a brain actually thinks that the Bible is God's universal truth. It is a well-established fact that the Bible is a collection of stories and philosophies written by humans and put together by humans.

    Also, I'm not sure if you are using "you" in the sense of "you, Plumstone" or "you, general Christians", but I never said that one should blindly follow the Bible, nor that I do. I consider myself to be religious, but I'm not a Bible-bashing Christian and I have many problems with what the Bible says and what most organised religions peddle as truth.

    I would be perfectly happy with people just trusting their own moral judgement and being good.
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    People have a lot of different sexual tastes and desires, i think its important to know before marriage that you are sexually compatible with your partner, that you enjoy the same things. Unless youre happy in a marriage where you either dont have sex, or have sex that doesnt turn you on.
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    (Original post by Plumstone)
    Since you've decided that you want to be more religious, let's presume that God exists.

    The rules set by God in the old testament are obviously the 10 commandments, which (aside from the first four which are all about respecting God) can be explained as:

    - respect your parents
    - don't kill
    - no adultery
    - don't steal
    - don't covet things that aren't yours (neighbours' wives, houses, asses, etc)

    I think we can all agree that these are pretty good rules for life; wouldn't humanity be great if we all followed these simple rules?

    In the new testament, the message becomes much simpler: Jesus turns up and says "love you neighbour as yourself" which kind of encompasses the commandments in a broad sense. Again, wouldn't it be good it we all followed that idea?


    The other rules which the Judaeo-Christian tradition gives us are ones decided by humans a very long time ago and many of them make sense for the culture in which they were created:

    - don't eat pork or shellfish = a good rule because these meats spoil easily and can lead to food poisoning

    - don't use contraception/masturbate = understandable because they want to maximise the number of people having children so that there will be more Christians born into the community

    - don't have sex before marriage = sensible, because that way you can be sure that your husband is the father of your children and you don't end up with lots of pregnant women with no men taking responsibility for them


    Of course, times have changed a lot over the past few thousand years. Fridges and freezers mean that we can eat sausages and oysters without worrying about getting ill and modern contraceptives mean that we have greater control than ever before about when we procreate and with whom.

    I consider myself to be religious because I believe in a higher power, even though I sometimes find it difficult to reconcile that with my rational mind. I think that the basic rules of Christianity are good: treating yourself and other people with respect is a good way to live your life.

    My problem with organised religion is that people get in the way of the loving message and corrupt it and try to use it to control other people or make them feel guilty.

    Do you think that an all-powerful, benevolent God would be upset because a happy, loving couple uses contraception so that they can have sex (thereby expressing their love for each other) without worrying about getting pregnant when it's the wrong time for them? I don't think so.

    My own situation is that I am unmarried, but have been with my boyfriend for almost five years. He is the only person I have had sex with and since we intend to be together (and eventually get married) for the rest of our lives, he is probably the only person I will ever have sex with. We love each other body and soul and are committed to leading the best lives we can for ourselves and each other. If God has an issue with that, then he's not a God I acknowledge.


    As for your initial question about sex before marriage, I think that only you can know what is right for you and I don't think that anyone has the right to judge you, no matter what you choose.
    Fabulous post - it's called "Social Conditioning" and what's practical and acceptable has changed slightly over the last 2,000 years.

    Unfortunately whilst God might be wise and omnipotent - he has some human servants who enjoy the power and respect of being in the religious "leadership team" rather too much. Often they feel the need to force their will on other humans to stand out and this can create rather puritanical individuals. They tell people what they must do e.g., no sex before marriage or go and blow up those bad individuals who don't believe in our faith by killing yourself with a bomb strapped to your chest. It's all too common for the weak or the needy to be taken in IMHO.
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    (Original post by Plumstone)
    Nobody with half a brain actually thinks that the Bible is God's universal truth. It is a well-established fact that the Bible is a collection of stories and philosophies written by humans and put together by humans.

    Also, I'm not sure if you are using "you" in the sense of "you, Plumstone" or "you, general Christians", but I never said that one should blindly follow the Bible, nor that I do. I consider myself to be religious, but I'm not a Bible-bashing Christian and I have many problems with what the Bible says and what most organised religions peddle as truth.

    I would be perfectly happy with people just trusting their own moral judgement and being good.
    I don't know if you know how many people, from now and the past, you're saying don't have half a brain... That statement is of course true, the Bible is just stories, but that isn't what Christians think, they actually beleive it's the word of God. If you don't believe in the Bible, I don't see how you can call yourself a Christian.

    I meant "you", anyone. I'm not exactly clear on what you consider yourself.

    So secular humanism, not religion?
 
 
 
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