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Islamophobia is not the same as antisemitism watch

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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Hating someone based on their religion doesn't exactly make you any better for hating on someone because of their race, does it?

    On far right groups, they refer to Muslims as "rats" or "locusts" (See Nazi Germany and what they called Jews), as well as calling all Muslims extremists. That is not a "legitimate criticism of Islam" but rather a crass generalisation of millions of people.

    Britain First called Muslim protestors who were protesting against them "Extremist Muslims" You can't pick and choose who is extreme so arbitrarily.
    Agreed that there are bigoted, racist, xenophobes on the far right who just lump everyone who is different together, but the vast majority of reasonable critics of Islam do not "hate Muslims". It is nothing more than a poorly constructed straw man.

    However, this particular discussion arose because a poster above said that such veiws were held against Muslims by "even some of TSR's more 'liberal' members ", and that is simply not borne out by the evidence.

    You may as well say that all Muslims are calling for the submission of all kuffar.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I have often heard people imply that the reason antisemitism is seen as worse than Islamophobia is due to them nasty "Zionists".
    Anti-semitism = against Jews
    Zionists relating to Jews.
    Islamophobia = against (followers of) Islam

    So isn't that logic backwards? Wouldn't it be
    I have often heard people imply that the reason Islamophobia is seen as worse than anti-semitism is due to them nasty "Zionists".

    So then you disagree with anti-semitism being seen as better.

    But there is a good reason why Islamophobia is not as bad as antisemitism. Islamophobia is prejudice against followers of Islam. It is hostility towards people due to their religious beliefs. Thus it is no different to hostility towards Christians, or in fact hostility towards anyone because of their ideological beliefs. It's not different to disliking someone for being socialist, conservative, libertarian, feminist, whatever...

    Antisemitism, on the other hand, is racist bigotry. Jews are not only a religious group, but a race. Thinking that Jews are inferior, that they are greedy, that they are elitist; these are all racist views.
    I don't yet have an answer for myself to which one is one, Islamophobia or anti-semitism, but I disagree with your reasoning.
    tl;dr; your reasoning is that anti-semitism is worse because ethnically Jewish people can't change their ethnicity, whilst islamophobia is not as bad simply because they can change their beliefs.

    This isn't applicable to every situation.

    tl;dr; further, one is changeable, one is not.

    Whether one is worse or not should be determined by the extent of the prejudice, how (ir)rational the prejudice is and which one affects the parties involved unjustifiably worse.

    Racism is worse than bigotry against people for the opinions they have. An ethnic Jew can't stop being a Jew, nor does his race speak for him or tell you anything about his personality. On the other hand, A Muslim may leave the faith and no longer consider himself a Muslim, and your ideological beliefs most certainly do tell you something about your character, especially when they are as big a part of your life as a religion is to religious people. One could feel that Islam is repulsive, and then go on to conclude that anyone who follows the religion must be of such a contrary mind to oneself that one would find them very dislikable.
    This would be an ignorant view in my opinion, as the world really isn't so straight-forward. But I hardly think it is comparable to racism.
    It is comparable.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    That's not true at all. Muslims have not been persecuted? Take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims
    How about the persecution of Muslims in India?
    How about the Bosnian genocide in which 8000 muslim men and boys were ethnically cleanesed? That's just two examples. Muslims have been persecuted plenty of times throughout history and to suggest otherwise is historical ignorance.
    Indeed, but that was not the argument. The thread is about "Islamophobia", the treatment of Muslims here, today, and my OP was in response to a comment specifically about attitudes on TSR.

    It is always a good idea to make sure that you are responding to points made rather than straw men of your own construction. As a reminder, I said...
    "Muslims - as a group - are being criticised for defending a violent, divisive and oppressive ideology. They are not persecuted."
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    And yes I am Jewish so don't come at me telling me i'm not.
    Jewish? You even don't recognize existence of Jewish nation.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Indeed, but that was not the argument. The thread is about "Islamophobia", the treatment of Muslims here, today, and my OP was in response to a comment specifically about attitudes on TSR.

    It is always a good idea to make sure that you are responding to points made rather than straw men of your own construction. As a reminder, I said...
    "Muslims - as a group - are being criticised for defending a violent, divisive and oppressive ideology. They are not persecuted."
    Muslims as a group are being persecuted though, and have been throughout history just like Jews have.

    I have responded to all your points and accusing me of not doing so is unnecessary. Let's stay off personal jibes.

    Both Jews and Muslims throughout history have been criticised and persecuted for being Jews or Muslims regardless of their beliefs or ideologies.

    Both anti-semitism and islamaphobia are wrong and unacceptable.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Jewish? You even don't recognize existence of Jewish nation.
    Jewish does not mean Zionist.
    I am Jewish non/anti- zionist. I don't believe any religion should have a state or that any state should have a religion.
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    Jewish people (Israelites) are of a race in a sense that they descend from Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. To be Jewish your mother has to also be Jewish. The Jewish race refers to those who have not converted to Judaism but were born into it.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Jewish does not mean Zionist.
    I am Jewish non/anti- zionist. I don't believe any religion should have a state or that any state should have a religion.
    I even didn't mention neither zionists nor religion.
    So, do you recognize existence of the Jewish nation?
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Hating someone based on their religion doesn't exactly make you any better for hating on someone because of their race, does it?
    Well, it's like the difference between hating someone because of the colour of their skin, and hating someone because they're a fascist. It's a pretty big difference. I'm not comparing Islam to fascism, I'm just using fascism as an example of an ideology which almost everyone is very comfortable about hating. Some people dislike Islam as an ideology. People can make reasoned arguments as to why they dislike ideologies. For example, there are plenty of reasoned arguments as to why fascism is very unpleasant. You could also go on to construe that anyone who follows fascism must be very unpleasant too. This is essentially the same line of thinking that Islamophobes take. This is something people do all the time, we often base our opinions on people on how much of their views we find agreeable. If we find someone who has views that are completely contrary to our own, it is common to dislike them. I don't see why this suddenly becomes so wrong when people do it with Muslims.


    (Original post by The_Internet)
    On far right groups, they refer to Muslims as "rats" or "locusts",
    Yes, there are some people who are very belligerent. I've heard plenty of people call Tories "scum" though. I don't see a difference.
    (Original post by The_Internet)
    as well as calling all Muslims extremists. That is not a "legitimate criticism of Islam" but rather a crass generalisation of millions of people.
    Calling all Muslims extremists is pretty disingenuous, but the Quran is very extreme in parts, so if one had a very black and white view of the world, they might conclude that anyone who claims to love the Quran is an extremist too.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Muslims as a group are being persecuted though, and have been throughout history just like Jews have.

    I have responded to all your points and accusing me of not doing so is unnecessary. Let's stay off personal jibes.

    Both Jews and Muslims throughout history have been criticised and persecuted for being Jews or Muslims regardless of their beliefs or ideologies.

    Both anti-semitism and islamaphobia are wrong and unacceptable.
    So have Hindus
    So have Christians
    So have Atheists
    So have Sikhs


    I'm not saying you should cosy up to Christians, but it's obvious you see the world in terms of evil WASP-y Christians vs everyone else and you think if you suck enough **** you will be accepted, like the bottom***** who is raped in prisons in America.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    I even didn't mention neither zionists nor religion.
    So, do you recognize existence of the Jewish nation?
    I don't know what you mean.
    Of course I recognize Jews as a religion, just as I recognize Muslims and Christians as a religion.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    So have Hindus
    So have Christians
    So have Atheists
    So have Sikhs


    I'm not saying you should cosy up to Christians, but it's obvious you see the world in terms of evil WASP-y Christians vs everyone else and you think if you suck enough **** you will be accepted, like the bottom***** who is raped in prisons in America.
    Of course.
    Judaism, like Islam is a religion and both, like other religions have been persecuted.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Anti-semitism = against Jews
    Zionists relating to Jews.
    Islamophobia = against (followers of) Islam

    So isn't that logic backwards? Wouldn't it be
    I have often heard people imply that the reason Islamophobia is seen as worse than anti-semitism is due to them nasty "Zionists".

    So then you disagree with anti-semitism being seen as better.
    No, it's the right way round. People think that Zionists make it seem like antisemitism is worse than Islamophobia, but it isn't.


    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    I don't yet have an answer for myself to which one is one, Islamophobia or anti-semitism, but I disagree with your reasoning.
    tl;dr; your reasoning is that anti-semitism is worse because ethnically Jewish people can't change their ethnicity, whilst islamophobia is not as bad simply because they can change their beliefs.

    This isn't applicable to every situation.

    tl;dr; further, one is changeable, one is not.

    Whether one is worse or not should be determined by the extent of the prejudice, how (ir)rational the prejudice is and which one affects the parties involved unjustifiably worse.
    So what you're saying is that all prejudice is as unjustified as any other, and it's the extent and power of the prejudice that decides how bad it is? What about your prejudice against Islamophobes? Or is it that all prejudice is as unjustified as any other, except if you agree with it?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Let's stay off personal jibes.
    "to suggest otherwise is historical ignorance"

    Physician, heal thyself!

    Both Jews and Muslims throughout history have been criticised and persecuted for being Jews or Muslims regardless of their beliefs or ideologies.
    Sorry, but I don't see the plight of the Jews as being in any way comparable to the plight of Muslims.
    As you insist on taking the historical context, I assume that you do not display the "historical ignorance" of claiming that Muslims have been systematically kicked through and out of pretty much every nation that they have had the misfortune to end up in, as well as being used as scapegoats for those countries ills. I also assume that you will not be claiming that the majority of Jewish persecution was a result of either sectarian nationalism, or foreign conquest (or the response to it)

    Both anti-semitism and islamaphobia are wrong and unacceptable.
    If you define Islamophobia as the violent and systematic persecution of Muslims simply for being Muslim, then I absolutely agree with you. However, that is not what even the most critical person would claim. Islamophobia, in the form that is most often accused of being, is the (sometimes robust) criticism of Islam as an ideology, and subsequent criticism of Muslims who attempt to defend its more unacceptable elements.
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    What a load of nonsense. All forms of discrimination are equally bad. Debate over.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Of course.
    Judaism, like Islam is a religion and both, like other religions have been persecuted.
    Do you recognise the difference between criticising an idea/religion and persecuting a people?

    I would also like to point out that no other people in the world faces the level of suspicion as Jewish people. Some people think Jews run all the banks and the media or if a person says they are Jewish instantly they are asked if they support Israel and they're expected to overtly reject Zionism, which again is racist and unfair.


    Bear in mind that I do recognise hatred of humans who believe in Islam as being every bit as bad as racism.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You make a lot of interesting points but still, Judaism can not be regarded as an 'ethnicity'.
    Judaism isn't regarded of as an ethnicity, it's a religion. Jews are considered an ethnicity. Do you really expect me to take your word over a silver-locked Wikipedia page? If you can't accept this fact then I see no point in continuing this discussion.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    Do you recognise the difference between criticising an idea/religion and persecuting a people?

    I would also like to point out that no other people in the world faces the level of suspicion as Jewish people. Some people think Jews run all the banks and the media or if a person says they are Jewish instantly they are asked if they support Israel and they're expected to overtly reject Zionism, which again is racist and unfair.


    Bear in mind that I do recognise hatred of humans who believe in Islam as being every bit as bad as racism.
    I don't feel that Jewish people are persecuted and criticized as a 'people' more so than Muslims or other religions.

    Sure the ideology/religion of Islam is criticised, as is Judaism and both are criticised and persecuted as people.

    Just to take one example, 8000 Muslims were killed in the Bosnian massacre for being Muslim. How is that not being persecuted for being Muslim?
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    (Original post by Murphy12)
    What a load of nonsense. All forms of discrimination are equally bad. Debate over.
    All forms? What about discrimination against racists?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    "to suggest otherwise is historical ignorance"

    Physician, heal thyself!

    Sorry, but I don't see the plight of the Jews as being in any way comparable to the plight of Muslims.
    As you insist on taking the historical context, I assume that you do not display the "historical ignorance" of claiming that Muslims have been systematically kicked through and out of pretty much every nation that they have had the misfortune to end up in, as well as being used as scapegoats for those countries ills. I also assume that you will not be claiming that the majority of Jewish persecution was a result of either sectarian nationalism, or foreign conquest (or the response to it)

    If you define Islamophobia as the violent and systematic persecution of Muslims simply for being Muslim, then I absolutely agree with you. However, that is not what even the most critical person would claim. Islamophobia, in the form that is most often accused of being, is the (sometimes robust) criticism of Islam as an ideology, and subsequent criticism of Muslims who attempt to defend its more unacceptable elements.
    You, yourself are defining the terms to suit your own narrative.
    You're defining anti-semitism as criticism of Jewish people but Islamaphobia as critiicsm of an ideology.

    Definition of Islamaphobia : 'dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.'

    Both Jews and Muslims have had their ideoligies criticized as well as being persecuted as people for being that religion.
 
 
 
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