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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Infrastructure can be built.
    Whose taxes are paying for it? The people working in starbucks earning £15,000 a year, paying £800 a year in tax?
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Whose taxes are paying for it? The people working in starbucks earning £15,000 a year, paying £800 a year in tax?
    The people who pay tax every year. The state is fat, we can find plenty of money.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    The people who pay tax every year. The state is fat, we can find plenty of money.
    Can we? That's good because we owe

    £1,500,000,000,000

    That's one and a half trillion pounds for the number challenged


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    (Original post by paul514)
    Can we? That's good because we owe

    £1,500,000,000,000

    That's one and a half trillion pounds for the number challenged

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    That's meaningless since the servicing cost is less than £50bn and will fall once we move into surplus. Affordability matters more than the nominal number no matter how scary it looks.

    And yes, the state spends tens of billions on crap.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    How about this:

    -Working-age people save for their retirement
    -Stop admitting low-skilled immigrants who sponge more than their contribute

    =More money for the Government to spend on public services for the elderly
    If you physically have more old people than young people to look after them no amount of money can fix that.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That's meaningless since the servicing cost is less than £50bn and will fall once we move into surplus. Affordability matters more than the nominal number no matter how scary it looks.

    And yes, the state spends tens of billions on crap.
    All the apparently none essential departments will have taken a 25-40% cut by 2018 from 2010

    Servicing the debt also costs more than 50 billion which isn't affordable at all even if it were that as its 500 billion a decade which could be spent on other things

    At this point I do think it will have to reach 2 trillion as we are still spending too much and yes infrastructure needs to be built but not continually


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    (Original post by paul514)
    All the apparently none essential departments will have taken a 25-40% cut by 2018 from 2010

    Servicing the debt also costs more than 50 billion which isn't affordable at all even if it were that as its 500 billion a decade which could be spent on other things

    At this point I do think it will have to reach 2 trillion as we are still spending too much and yes infrastructure needs to be built but not continually

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    Indeed however it's possible to go much further in welfare, foreign aid and even health.

    Not so, it costs £43bn at the moment with government revenues in excess of £600bn. That's still affordable even if not desirable.

    Probably not far off but if we do reach surplus and start paying off the longest dated debt, we'll be in a good position over time. Moreover the important figure is debt to GDP and that should fall around 30% if we can maintain surplus for a decade.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    If you physically have more old people than young people to look after them no amount of money can fix that.
    Then clearly we are spending too much on public services then!

    You can't just increase the working age population, then when they grow old you need even more working age population

    etc

    etc
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    The people who pay tax every year. The state is fat, we can find plenty of money.
    Do you realise you just completely lost the argument with this?
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Then clearly we are spending too much on public services then!

    You can't just increase the working age population, then when they grow old you need even more working age population

    etc

    etc
    ... You don't understand. Money can not magic humans beings into existence. All the money in the world can not fix that.

    Nope. It could balance out.
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    we should ship the benefit scroungers overseas and bring in more people with better work ethic!
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    ... You don't understand. Money can not magic humans beings into existence. All the money in the world can not fix that.

    Nope. It could balance out.
    It could balance out?????? How??
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    It could balance out?????? How??
    There will exist the possibility of the rate of death and birth converging to an equilibrium. Calculus innit.

    I'm still waiting for you explanation how money alone can make young people to look after a population top heavy in old people.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Do you realise you just completely lost the argument with this?
    Do you realize that my opinion is more important to me than yours. Until I'm convinced that another post has greater merit, you are free to think whatever you want but its irrelevant to me.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    That would be a neat trick since the 1931 census reported the population of England and Wales as 39.9 million. Were they anticipating a plague?
    No. Birth rates were exceedingly low. There was an exert on the radio of one of the then ministers worrying about the population frittering away to nothing. But don't forget that in the 60's we were all destined to be travelling by helicopter in the 80's and 90's and in the 80's we were going to be riding around on hover boards around now.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That's not really a problem to me, I'm fine with a larger population. Infrastructure can be built.
    This is the real problem: there are millions of British people who are alienated from the world.

    I was in a pub recently, eavesdropping on the next table, one of the group said "who needs trees? You could cut down the lot of them for all I care!"

    This weekend I went down to Devon and just breathed the fresh air and imbibed the green scenery. Real green, not the beaten green of the South East. I saw four species of lichen on a single branch. Man and nature seemed in balance. It was as good for me as any work, success, medicine or religion.

    Those who are brutalised by basements and lost in the mechanisms of advancement should not govern us.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    This is the real problem: there are millions of British people who are alienated from the world.

    I was in a pub recently, eavesdropping on the next table, one of the group said "who needs trees? You could cut down the lot of them for all I care!"

    This weekend I went down to Devon and just breathed the fresh air and imbibed the green scenery. Real green, not the beaten green of the South East. I saw four species of lichen on a single branch. Man and nature seemed in balance. It was as good for me as any work, success, medicine or religion.

    Those who are brutalised by basements and lost in the mechanisms of advancement should not govern us.
    I have the fortune of being one of the 40 or so million people outside the south east. Despite being in urban west Yorkshire I'm within 30-60 minutes of the countryside in all directions and when it comes to the larger population and immigrants I don't see anything which can't be rectified by infrastructure. There are some unskilled people who get beat by immigrants but I'm not one of them.

    If anything id say its you guys in the south east who don't represent the experience of the wider population between the London hippies and shire nimby's.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    f anything id say its you guys in the south east who don't represent the experience of the wider population between the London hippies and shire nimby's.
    Your derogatory terminology: "London hippies and shire nimbies" - shows a mechanical approach to philosophy. Do you have any idea why you do anything? So you get a degree, so what? Some people are concerned about AI's taking over the world and machines imitating humans but do we live in an age where humans have learnt how to imitate machines?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Your derogatory terminology: "London hippies and shire nimbies" - shows a mechanical approach to philosophy. Do you have any idea why you do anything? So you get a degree, so what? Some people are concerned about AI's taking over the world and machines imitating humans but do we live in an age where humans have learnt how to imitate machines?
    Interesting, what do you mean? I'm quite detached and rational of that's what you mean.

    You've lost me a bit at the bottom. That's not a negative outcome perhaps.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Interesting, what do you mean? I'm quite detached and rational of that's what you mean.

    You've lost me a bit at the bottom. That's not a negative outcome perhaps.
    What I am saying is that "I" am not just my thoughts and actions, I am also deeply related to the forms, patterns and actions that flow into me. When I go on the tube I try to look around but soon I turn to my book and shut it all out or start thinking about my latest project, which dulls my perception. When I am walking on Wimbledon Common with my dog I find myself entwined with a world outside my body, memories and internal processes that brings light to my life.

    I know that "nature" in the UK is a balance between man and nature but it is still full of the natural.

    There is a balance and beauty in nature that is not in me. I do not believe this is because I am especially ugly, it is because nature is especially beautiful compared with me and compared with the works of people. This is why I am sad about the endless encroachment of the urban.
 
 
 
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