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Child tax credits should be paid based upon education/skills watch

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    (Original post by Davij038)


    Ordinary people can't relate to tax dodging the same way they can relate to benefit cheats. Additionally the sort of people who abuse the system do so in a personalised way where the effects are readily seen as opposed to the almost depersonalised nature of corporate tax dodgers.
    That doesn't make it right though does it? And all those reasons are true but that's all the more reason it should be flagged up by the press extensively. In fact that should be the very job of the press - to flag up things such as this which we can't see ourselves but affect us massively.

    While sky tv benefits may be annoying, corporate tax avoidance means our schools and hospitals our underfunded. It costs us far more yet no one is angry. And that's just how the tories like it, because it means they can carry out their ideological welfare cuts because people are more annoyed with the odd abuser of the benefit system that they are of the huge abusers of tax avoidance.




    Exactly and this is the problem- Why has Corbyn elected this maverick over somebody who could talk about this AND not cause controversy- why not Owen Jones?

    Again and again own goals...
    Can I remind you that David Cameron appointed Andy Coulson - a convicted criminal who hacked a dead girls phone to sell stories. He's 10 times worse than Milne. Why does Cameron get away with it?


    Tge tax credits fiasco will be mediated and forgotten about- just like McDonnell s Fiscal Omnishambles. Nobody's really that concerned at the start of the parliament. The hiring of Seumas Milne is akin to the Tories hiring Nick Griffin (slightly unfair actually, Griffins never supported terrorism) - it's a dangerous precedent of what's going on in the leaders mind- and this guy's head of press relations ffs.
    No, Griffin just denied the Holocaust and called for all non-whites to be deported...
    I don't beleive Milne supports terrorism at all - he is very critical of ours and America's role in the 'war of terror' and rightly so. After all, if it wasn't for us invading Iraq - in all likeliness Isis wouldn't have happened.

    Tax credits will actually hit peoples wallets. Several of them tory voters - this is a big own goal for the tories.


    I agree but I doubt he'll stand down voluntarily.
    I do.
    I'm happy so far, there has been no break away party and he's been hammering Cameron at PMQs. The more people see of him without the media spin the better because he is a thoroughly decent guy (even the Blairites admit everyone likes him on a personal level).
    The problem with Blairites is that they don't actually stand for what Blair stood for. Blair was all about massive, massive public investment, about child and tax credits. Although some of the means were questionable, at least he invested while at the same time achieving more surpluses then the tories could ever wish to achieve.
    Blairites nowadays were all about austerity.
    However the right of the party have been set a new challenge. No longer can they be complacent, they need to think of fresh, new ideas. If Corbyn's victory encourages someone like Chuka Umunna to come out with a strong, progressive, fresh and exciting programme then it will be a success.


    The tories are now abandoning that 'centre ground' they've been described as having (without ever being actually centrist) and it's an opportunity for Corbyn to appear plausible.

    I am interested though in why you've gone off the tories.
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    Your point on they ax dodgers I can broadly agree though I still think benefit cheats would still be more of a voter concern than tax dodgers even if the media wholly focussed on tax dodgingl

    (Original post by Bornblue)

    Can I remind you that David Cameron appointed Andy Coulson - a convicted criminal who hacked a dead girls phone to sell stories. He's 10 times worse than Milne. Why does Cameron get away with it?
    I'm not so sure- it's an interesting ethical point. Coulson didn't try and argue that his point of view was right did he? And when he got got found out he got the sack. Milne glorifies terrorism, which he's entitled to as free speech but I don't think im the only one that thinks that's at least on par with phone hacking and on any case he was paid to do it he wasn't doing it because he believed it to be right.


    No, Griffin just denied the Holocaust and called for all non-whites to be deported...
    I'm pretty sure the last parts not true and the former only partially true. I don't like nick griffin but the press treated him much like Corbyn.

    I don't beleive Milne supports terrorism at all - he is very critical of ours and America's role in the 'war of terror' and rightly so.
    No. Like I've said- you can be critical of western foreign policy. Fine. Charles Kennedy was for instance. That doesn't mean you should actively support the 'resistance' that blows up schools and hospitals like Seumas and Galloway do. It would have been acceptable to be against world war 2 as a pacifist. It wouldn't have been acceptable to don swasticas and support nazi germsanyv in their fight against western imperialism.

    After all, if it wasn't for us invading Iraq - in all likeliness Isis wouldn't have happened.
    - Isis originated in Syria
    - assuming that saddam would have kept power ( he wasn't young) plus Arab spring
    - assuming he wouldn't have done anything as bad

    Tax credits will actually hit peoples wallets. Several of them tory voters - this is a big own goal for the tories.
    It hasn't happened yet though. If it doesn't go through it won't matter.

    I do.
    I'm happy so far, there has been no break away party and he's been hammering Cameron at PMQs. The more people see of him without the media spin the better because he is a thoroughly decent guy (even the Blairites admit everyone likes him on a personal level).[/quotes]

    That's rxactly what people said about Ed Miliband- even Dan Hodges wrote about how nice he was. It doesn't matter. I say again. If people can't see you as leader then it doesn't matter. No one, not even you or Owen Jones can really see him as leader.

    The problem with Blairites is that they don't actually stand for what Blair stood for. Blair was all about massive, massive public investment, about child and tax credits. Although some of the means were questionable, at least he invested while at the same time achieving more surpluses then the tories could ever wish to achieve.
    Blairites nowadays were all about austerity.
    Blairites stand by working within the narrative and shifting popular position leftwards. Your principles whilst admirable don't matter if they're not in a position to be used. It's simple- people didn't vote for the Tories because they were concerned about tax dodgers and inequality and statistically whilst we can discuss SNP and greens the Tory vote is the one labour needs most (in any case- can you really see Corbyn winning back Scotland?)
    I am interested though in why you've gone off the tories.[/QUOTE]

    Not happy with George's attitude especially concerning China. I hate Theresa May and Boris isn't much better. Like I said, there were some very damaging articles in the Spectator

    Like this: http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/09/m...-china-policy/

    I've also become much less liberal of late. Additionally blairism is doing well in France* and Italy I think.

    *not so much Hollande but people like manuel Valls
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Your point on they ax dodgers I can broadly agree though I still think benefit cheats would still be more of a voter concern than tax dodgers even if the media wholly focussed on tax dodgingl
    Maybe not, but they'd care about it a damn site more. That's why I often go on about the biased nature of the press, how it exploits peoples fears and doesn't hold the government (tories) to account enough.

    This is a prime example of where the press should be flagging the issue up, exactly because we can't see it but it affects us massively. But in the general press and a lot of the public, benefit abuse provokes utter outrage, tax avoidance which costs us 100 times as much, provokes a shrug of the shoulders and at best, lip service.
    That has to change and it's not right.

    I'm not so sure- it's an interesting ethical point. Coulson didn't try and argue that his point of view was right did he? And when he got got found out he got the sack. Milne glorifies terrorism, which he's entitled to as free speech but I don't think im the only one that thinks that's at least on par with phone hacking and on any case he was paid to do it he wasn't doing it because he believed it to be right.
    Whatever you think of Milne, he's not a criminal, Coulson is. Coulson targeted a dead girl, who'd been violently raped and killed and deleted her voicemails, to try and sell a story. For months this gave the family false hope she was still alive. Also being paid to do a criminal act is not even the slightest justification.
    Cameron appointed a criminal into Downing Street and that is far worse than anything Milne has done.


    I'm pretty sure the last parts not true and the former only partially true. I don't like nick griffin but the press treated him much like Corbyn.


    In his own words he said the existence gas chambers was 'nonsense' and a 'total lie'.
    That's not a partial truth, that's hook, line and slicker Holocaust denial.


    No. Like I've said- you can be critical of western foreign policy. Fine. Charles Kennedy was for instance. That doesn't mean you should actively support the 'resistance' that blows up schools and hospitals like Seumas and Galloway do. It would have been acceptable to be against world war 2 as a pacifist. It wouldn't have been acceptable to don swasticas and support nazi germsanyv in their fight against western imperialism.
    I don't think he has 'supported the resistance' per se.
    There is no doubt that the Iraq war caused a power vacuum which has been grasped by far worse entities than Sadam Hussein.



    It hasn't happened yet though. If it doesn't go through it won't matter.
    It has still damaged their image and shown the tories shuffling off to the right. (well they've always been on the right, their perception is changing though)


    As for seeing Corbyn as a leader, I can and I think he'll step down before the next election anyway.
    As for Blairties, let me ask you, what have they been arguing for in the last few years? Just watered down austerity. People don't want tory lite. Blair initially was not tory lite, he offered a real and fresh alternative, the Blairites today were unable to do the same and they paid, getting 4.5% of the vote in the leadership contest.
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Child tax credits should be paid based upon education/skills of parents. i.e those who have degrees should be paid more. This is an incentive for people to go out and learn a skill or gain a degree.

    Discuss?

    Those without will receive a lower sum. This is an incentive to stop "chav" culture/teenage pregnancies and council house dependency.
    No, no and here's a little more no


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    I understand what you're trying to say, however i pose you this question, if people with not many qualifications are given less money, how are they supposed to be able to save up money to be able to pay for a course to access these qualifications as they aren't free and the government doesn't have very many schemes in place to help older people learn new skills, my mother for example, we would not be able to support ourselves if she were to do any form of qualification be it full or part time due to tuition fees
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Like a lot of supposed 'common sense' policies- it simply doesn't work. Having a degree or even being well off doesn't make you a good parent.



    My thoughts on some family policies that should be adopted-

    I think there needs to be a 3 child limit on child benefits.
    Welfare vouchers so that money cant be spent on booze, **** and Sky.
    Make Baby Milk formula prescription only
    Make baby milk formula prescription only? Out of interest, why?
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Make baby milk formula prescription only? Out of interest, why?
    Breast is best- you should not have children to convenient your own lifestyle at the expense of your child's well being.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Breast is best- you should not have children to convenient your own lifestyle at the expense of your child's well being.
    There's actually very recent scientific literature stating that breast may not actually afford that many more benefits than formula. I think that introducing formula as prescription only would just be a massive waste of doctors' time, when GP's are already stretching to see everyone who needs it. Plus, given that some doctors give in to pushy patients who have viruses and demand antibiotics, I doubt they'd stand up to demanding new mothers
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    So if I have a learning disability that has inhibited me from academic achievement but I'm living comfortably with a more vocational job I should lose out?

    +1 discrimination point
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    There's actually very recent scientific literature stating that breast may not actually afford that many more benefits than formula. I think that introducing formula as prescription only would just be a massive waste of doctors' time, when GP's are already stretching to see everyone who needs it. Plus, given that some doctors give in to pushy patients who have viruses and demand antibiotics, I doubt they'd stand up to demanding new mothers
    I've never heard of that study/it goes against a mass of other research/ It's probably been funded by formulae lobbies.

    Make it an issue for mid wives- they'll stand their ground
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I've never heard of that study/it goes against a mass of other research/ It's probably been funded by formulae lobbies.

    Make it an issue for mid wives- they'll stand their ground
    Thing is, you make it a contentious issue by prescribing formula. What about doctors who refuse on the grounds that mental health isn't an issue that would prevent breast feeding (for example)? Plus, what about a woman's autonomy? It's like mandatory vaccinations - in principle I agree but I disagree with the idea of the authoritarian feel. There also needs to be societal change - while women feel uncomfortable, due to other people and their attitudes, breast feeding in public, it would be completely unfair - perhaps even more than that - to force women to do so. And also just showcasing human double standards yet again, women MUST breastfeed but we can steal a cow's baby, after inducing pregnancy ourselves, away from her so we can take her milk lmao nice
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Thing is, you make it a contentious issue by prescribing formula. What about doctors who refuse on the grounds that mental health isn't an issue that would prevent breast feeding (for example)?
    Its already a contentious issue and mental health problems wouldn't effect breastfeeding...I don't see your point here


    Plus, what about a woman's autonomy?
    If women want autonomy they can use contraception or as a last resort get an abortion. If they're going to bring yet more humans into existence then they should at least ensure that they are of an adequate standard and help them lead healthy, happy lives.

    It's like mandatory vaccinations - in principle I agree but I disagree with the idea of the authoritarian feel. There also needs to be societal change - while women feel uncomfortable, due to other people and their attitudes, breast feeding in public, it would be completely unfair - perhaps even more than that - to force women to do so.
    Whilst i'm willing to some degree to let adults make stupid decisions which will harm themselves, I draw the line fully when passing it onto children.

    As for societal change, well if everyone was doing it wouldn't that change it?

    And also just showcasing human double standards yet again, women MUST breastfeed but we can steal a cow's baby, after inducing pregnancy ourselves, away from her so we can take her milk lmao nice
    I don't think that's a relevant example at all- it would be better for the calves to be fed naturally rather than being fed formulae.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Its already a contentious issue and mental health problems wouldn't effect breastfeeding...I don't see your point here




    If women want autonomy they can use contraception or as a last resort get an abortion. If they're going to bring yet more humans into existence then they should at least ensure that they are of an adequate standard and help them lead healthy, happy lives.



    Whilst i'm willing to some degree to let adults make stupid decisions which will harm themselves, I draw the line fully when passing it onto children.

    As for societal change, well if everyone was doing it wouldn't that change it?



    I don't think that's a relevant example at all- it would be better for the calves to be fed naturally rather than being fed formulae.
    Post natal depression is just one reason mental health may affect breast feeding - some doctors may, in this hypothetical world, refuse to prescribe on that basis because mental health isn't taken anywhere near as seriously in the UK as it should be (I never thought we were that bad, then I went to the doctor after I moved out to Berlin for my year abroad and discovered we really really are compared to the Germans at least haha). What then?

    If breast feeding where that large a part of a child's survival, it would be mandatory already. In other countries, e.g. the African countries, I'd agree that it has a huge impact on survival. In the west/Europe, not so much. You can live a happy, healthy life without breast feeding. And saying 'breast feed or abort your child' - really?! There are so many factors re: health and happiness, too. You can be breast fed as a child and still have health problems, or not be happy, because of other things. Breast feeding doesn't automatically guarantee that; it's such a multifactoral thing that the impact of breast feeding over lifetime is probably negligible. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that breast feeding is good (I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here tbh) but I disagree completely with breast feeding being mandatory. A woman should have a choice over it, just as I'd argue a man should have a choice over it if there were a comparable thing.

    Nope, it wouldn't, not on its own. Again, it's multifactoral - just because you make it mandatory by law (or whatever), doesn't automatically change people's attitudes. It's also very much a generational thing.

    My point with the calf example was partly - calves would be better off with their mother's milk than formula, especially as in some farming systems they don't even get colostrum. The other half of my point was that humans have horrible double standards - people happily slam women for not breast feeding, even if there are medical reasons behind the decision that they may or may not know about, or just completely disregarding the fact that a woman has a choice over what she does with her own body, but we happily nick milk off other species. If you're gonna have a hissy fit over a woman not breast feeding, stop the ridiculous double standard of drinking cow's (/sheep/goat etc.) milk.
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    I like how this thread has been brought back to life.

    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Post natal depression is just one reason mental health may affect breast feeding - some doctors may, in this hypothetical world, refuse to prescribe on that basis because mental health isn't taken anywhere near as seriously in the UK as it should be (I never thought we were that bad, then I went to the doctor after I moved out to Berlin for my year abroad and discovered we really really are compared to the Germans at least haha). What then?

    If breast feeding where that large a part of a child's survival, it would be mandatory already. In other countries, e.g. the African countries, I'd agree that it has a huge impact on survival. In the west/Europe, not so much. You can live a happy, healthy life without breast feeding. And saying 'breast feed or abort your child' - really?! There are so many factors re: health and happiness, too. You can be breast fed as a child and still have health problems, or not be happy, because of other things. Breast feeding doesn't automatically guarantee that; it's such a multifactoral thing that the impact of breast feeding over lifetime is probably negligible. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that breast feeding is good (I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here tbh) but I disagree completely with breast feeding being mandatory. A woman should have a choice over it, just as I'd argue a man should have a choice over it if there were a comparable thing.

    Nope, it wouldn't, not on its own. Again, it's multifactoral - just because you make it mandatory by law (or whatever), doesn't automatically change people's attitudes. It's also very much a generational thing.

    My point with the calf example was partly - calves would be better off with their mother's milk than formula, especially as in some farming systems they don't even get colostrum. The other half of my point was that humans have horrible double standards - people happily slam women for not breast feeding, even if there are medical reasons behind the decision that they may or may not know about, or just completely disregarding the fact that a woman has a choice over what she does with her own body, but we happily nick milk off other species. If you're gonna have a hissy fit over a woman not breast feeding, stop the ridiculous double standard of drinking cow's (/sheep/goat etc.) milk.
    Hi
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    I like how this thread has been brought back to life.

    Hi
    Hahaha sorry! There's only so much time you can spend on your own because everyone's busy with uni before you start getting seriously bored!
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Hahaha sorry! There's only so much time you can spend on your own because everyone's busy with uni before you start getting seriously bored!
    Haha no need to say sorry, enjoy

    I use to be so bored at UoB too sometimes.
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Haha no need to say sorry, enjoy

    I use to be so bored at UoB too sometimes.
    Ahh UoB grad?! I actually love and miss it there - I'm on a year abroad atm, missing my bigger friendship group from home!
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Ahh UoB grad?! I actually love and miss it there - I'm on a year abroad atm, missing my bigger friendship group from home!
    Yep i did my msc there. Can imagine!

    Campus use to look great in the snow
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    (Original post by abruiseonthesky)
    Post natal depression is just one reason mental health may affect breast feeding - some doctors may, in this hypothetical world, refuse to prescribe on that basis because mental health isn't taken anywhere near as seriously in the UK as it should be (I never thought we were that bad, then I went to the doctor after I moved out to Berlin for my year abroad and discovered we really really are compared to the Germans at least haha). What then?
    If the mother is that mentally damaged that she cant feed her child then the baby can have formulae given to it by a responsible adult. There is no issue here.


    If breast feeding where that large a part of a child's survival, it would be mandatory already. In other countries, e.g. the African countries, I'd agree that it has a huge impact on survival. In the west/Europe, not so much. You can live a happy, healthy life without breast feeding.

    You can be breast fed as a child and still have health problems, or not be happy, because of other things. Breast feeding doesn't automatically guarantee that; it's such a multifactoral thing that the impact of breast feeding over lifetime is probably negligible. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that breast feeding is good (I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here tbh) but I disagree completely with breast feeding being mandatory.
    You can live a perfectly happy life with any number of ailments. That is not the point and is indicative of our selfish generation- we should want the best for our children and do what is convenient to them not vice versa.

    A woman should have a choice over it, just as I'd argue a man should have a choice over it if there were a comparable thing.
    If there was some sort of way to adequately police aspiring fathers consumption of substances harmful to his sperm I'd be open to it- ensuring a greater percentage of breastfeeding is one simple solution.

    Nope, it wouldn't, not on its own. Again, it's multifactoral - just because you make it mandatory by law (or whatever), doesn't automatically change people's attitudes.
    No, but it would become a cultural norm over time. I guess there could be black market formulae but I think with the children involved should be enough to scare most parents out of entertaining that.


    My point with the calf example was partly - calves would be better off with their mother's milk than formula, especially as in some farming systems they don't even get colostrum. The other half of my point was that humans have horrible double standards - people happily slam women for not breast feeding, even if there are medical reasons behind the decision that they may or may not know about, or just completely disregarding the fact that a woman has a choice over what she does with her own body, but we happily nick milk off other species. If you're gonna have a hissy fit over a woman not breast feeding, stop the ridiculous double standard of drinking cow's (/sheep/goat etc.) milk.
    Well your first point was my point so im not sure where you are going there.

    As for your second....I am sympathetic to Veganism but this attitude is nuts. So, because I kill and eat animals, there's no real differentiation if I kill and eat you?
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Yep i did my msc there. Can imagine!

    Campus use to look great in the snow
    Great uni

    Campus looks lovely all year round, much better than Freie Universität Berlin
 
 
 
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