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Independent: The Prophet Mohammed had British values watch

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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Just trying to teach tomorrows children how to submit to Islam so they dont get hacked into peaces by peaceful members of the religion of peaces for eating a bacon roll and drawing cartoons
    It's not even that though, it's more subtle. The liberal leftists doing this want to change Islam and change the character of Muhammad into a sort of family friendly Arab Jesus. I feel many Muslims will find this more problematic than ethnic Brits when they see some Guardian reading White Atheist claiming to know more about their religion than the Muslim Imam.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)'s message was unique and free from flaws
    Of course it was, and that is why Moslem slave owners in Mali have Islamic justification in keeping their slaves.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Of course it was, and that is why Moslem slave owners in Mali have Islamic justification in keeping their slaves.
    Hmm the only way Islam allows slavery is through non-Muslim POWs, we don't capture and kidnap and then enslave people according to our religion *cough cough*.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Hmm the only way Islam allows slavery is through non-Muslim POWs,
    Two points. (a) Mohammed traded slaves so that isn't quite true (as that would have enabled people to acquire them through purchase from His Prophetiness rather than fighting for them, and their children are born slaves), and Moslems have been taking non-POW slaves for centuries. (b) There are Moslems in the world waging war and capturing slaves.
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    He had sex with a child,was a polygamist and owned slaves. Yeah he's as British as Mr Bean.
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    Imagine if we had a newspaper in this country that was properly liberal and supported actual liberal values. One can dream.:rolleyes:
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    How can the independent consider itself a liberal newspaper, and then have someone going on about how we should teach more conservative drivel in schools? We need less. Make schools secular. Besides, no real spirituality can be taught in schools.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So like every religion then?
    Yep.

    I'm fairly anti-religion, but in the same way I don't think all Christian or Jews are evil murderers and rapist, I don't think all Muslims are evil child rapists either. Christians can be perfectly civil citizens and so can Muslims.
    Indeed. It depends a lot on which interpretation they favour.

    My response to the article is make all schools secular.
    Yes. Religion should only be referred to as part of the history syllabus. Christianity and Islam being treated in exactly the same way as the Egyptian and Norse gods.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)'s message was unique and free from flaws unlike any other culture that is constrained to tradition and time.
    Is that why there are no ambiguities, inconsistencies or contradictions in the Koran? Is that why there are no follow-up writings that explain or interpret the Koran? Is that why Islam is not split up into sects, the biggest two of which seem to be in continuous war with one another?
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    (Original post by demx9)
    I thought this paper was reputable, turns out it's just another rag paper.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6717066.html
    Is it the 1st of April already?
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Was arguing about this with my younger brother who is Christian. He thinks that basically 'anyone could have said what the Prophet said'.
    Most of the stuff in the Quran that isn't culturally specific to 7th century Arabia had been said before.

    I don't believe so, Islam and the Prophet's message was unique and free from flaws unlike any other culture that is constrained to tradition and time.
    Do you think that the permission to keep slaves and have sex with then is "free from flaw"?
    How about the permission to beat your disobedient wife? Also "flaw free"?
    You don't think that flogging consenting adults for having sex might not be the perfect answer to the issue?
    And of course, there's the small matter of killing those who oppose Islam. Can't see any problems with that?

    And that's without mentioning the scientific inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies.
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    (Original post by Simes)
    Is that why there are no ambiguities, inconsistencies or contradictions in the Koran? Is that why there are no follow-up writings that explain or interpret the Koran? Is that why Islam is not split up into sects, the biggest two of which seem to be in continuous war with one another?
    There are no inconsistencies and contradictions in the Qur'an, and there are such things as 'tafsir' or explanations of the Qur'an.

    Some of these sects aren't really Muslim, like Ahmadiyyahs who believe in another Prophet. Islam isn't responsible for it.
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    (Original post by Simes)
    Is that why there are no ambiguities, inconsistencies or contradictions in the Koran? Is that why there are no follow-up writings that explain or interpret the Koran? Is that why Islam is not split up into sects, the biggest two of which seem to be in continuous war with one another?
    One has to wonder why these people continue to make claims like that when, with barely a thought, several examples come to mind that illustrate just how hollow they are. Perhaps it is the definition of flaw that is at fault.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Most of the stuff in the Quran that isn't culturally specific to 7th century Arabia had been said before.

    Do you think that the permission to keep slaves and have sex with then is "free from flaw"?
    How about the permission to beat your disobedient wife? Also "flaw free"?
    You don't think that flogging consenting adults for having sex might not be the perfect answer to the issue?
    And of course, there's the small matter of killing those who oppose Islam. Can't see any problems with that?

    And that's without mentioning the scientific inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies.
    I consider anything the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said as blessed and right. You are just putting a negative spin on these things. I know that Islam is merciful and just religion and the commandments of God are not going to wrongfully take the rights of anyone, no matter how others practised similar laws before Islam
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Just trying to teach tomorrows children how to submit to Islam so they dont get hacked into peaces by peaceful members of the religion of peaces for eating a bacon roll and drawing cartoons
    What does Islam say about rape?
    What does Islam say about Kuffars?

    I could go on.

    The thing is that while the bible may say some out of place things as well, no denying it, no one takes it seriously. Looking at the problems Europe and having with Islam (let alone Africa and the Middle East) we can let real world experience tell us how British the values of Muhammad (pbuh) are.

    There are plenty of articles criticising Muhammad for his values, you don't need a rocket scientist to work out that this thread is going to see them come up soon.
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    (Original post by demx9)
    I thought this paper was reputable, turns out it's just another rag paper.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6717066.html
    You can selectively interpret Hitler's work to make him appear as a true patriot and a loving person who sought after the well being of humanity. True Muhammed believed in democracy, but he believed ever more in theocracy, he also believed that women are inferior to men, clearly not a "British-valued figure", not by today's standards anyway.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    There are no inconsistencies and contradictions in the Qur'an,
    There are inconsistencies and contradictions present in the Quran- so much so, Muslim scholars have developed the doctrine of Naskh "Abrogation" to deal with such contradictions. You as a Muslim apologist with the presupposition that Islam is "perfect" and "free from flaws" significantly dims your ability to be truly objective, rational and critical and thus quite unlikely to admit to any such inconsistency and contradictions present in the Quran, so as to not shatter your vested interest in Islam as the "perfect" and "true" religion.

    and there are such things as 'tafsir' or explanations of the Qur'an.
    Is infallible allah who supposedly produced the "perfect, universal and timeless" Quran, incapable of producing a "perfect and clear" book without the need for clarification by fallible humans and their subjective interpretations? What an incompetent God.

    Some of these sects aren't really Muslim, like Ahmadiyyahs who believe in another Prophet. Islam isn't responsible for it.
    Making Takfir ey? According to your subjective interpretation of Islam, they're not "Muslim", according to their subjective interpretation of Islam, they view themselves as "Muslim". What's "True Islam" is still a very much contested title, that I don't think we'll ever come close to answering (so much for the perfect and clear religion)

    (You've already been caught out airing misinformation concerning Islamic slavery by 'Good bloke' and 'Qe2', shall you go further to embarrassment? Better retreat to the ISOC secret base)
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    Was arguing about this with my younger brother who is Christian. He thinks that basically 'anyone could have said what the Prophet said'. I don't believe so, Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)'s message was unique and free from flaws unlike any other culture that is constrained to tradition and time.
    A unique message free from flaws? Here is just one of the myriad available;

    On sperm production;
    "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

    This fits in with the contemporary view of anatomy-that sperm came from between the backbone and ribs. It cannot be the word of god since it is false.

    If you had said that you accept the general concepts in the Koran then fine, that is ok. The bible also has flaws but if you don't declare it free from flaws you are ok.
    What you have done is declare something free from flaws when there are many, many flaws in it.
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    (Original post by string56)
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    The top one is so true, +1
 
 
 
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