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B881 - Abolition of Private Education Bill 2015 watch

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    I cant believe that someone even consider this was a good idea. (maybe it was the idiot who thought we needed to spend 5 times more on education?)

    NAY
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    woah, did not expect such a right-wing response...
    I don't think it's a right-wing response. I think it's more so that people should have the right to send their children to whatever school they like. It is clear though that we need to improve the quality of state schools so private schools are no longer needed.

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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    It also has to be a Nay from me, despite how sympathetic I am. Ideologically speaking, I agree with you, I think that they're unfair and those pupils who go to them have an advantage in life that's without merit. However, it is one's liberty to send their children to the school that they think is best for their child, and I don't think it's fair to stop it. We're already seeing state schools doing better, in some cases better than private schools, in many cases as well as private schools. The way that I'd go about it would be to put more investment into our state schools, improve them so that they do better than private schools, work on the unfair advantage that private students get (which we're currently doing in government), and through competition see private schools die out through the market.
    In many cases better then private, private does not imply best, those that are the old "public" schools imply best. There are a great many relatively average private schools, I imagine not least because of just how bad some of the state schools are.

    It is always worth pointing out, that even though a great many seem to have a problem understanding the concept, it is generally best to lift the bottom up rather than drag the top down.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How about no

    Almost as stupid as scrapping tuition fees

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    It way more stupid than scrapping tuition fees (scrapping tuition fees is 10/10 mega stupid)
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I don't think it's a right-wing response. I think it's more so that people should have the right to send their children to whatever school they like. It is clear though that we need to improve the quality of state schools so private schools are no longer needed.

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    It is quite right-wing to be pro-privatization which is essentially what this is; honestly, I think there are pros and cons to private school, although I believe you should be free to opt for a better education for your children, is it really fair that only those who can afford the fees get that option? Surely it's giving children higher-income households an unfair advantage?

    In my opinion, there should be more state-run grammar schools so teaching can be targeted, allowing students at both grammar and comprehensive schools to excel.

    As I said though, I'm not completely against public schools and I see where you're coming from.
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    woah, did not expect such a right-wing response...
    How is the response "right-wing"? Is wanting the best education for your child exclusive to the right wing then?
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I don't think it's a right-wing response. I think it's more so that people should have the right to send their children to whatever school they like. It is clear though that we need to improve the quality of state schools so private schools are no longer needed.

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    agreed.
    And since no one else has commented on finance, private schools do the taxpayer a great service, by making wealthy people pay for their kids education, and therefore reducing the education expenses by the government.
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    Like the sentiment United but as said in the thread, a good source of potential revenue if we keep private schools open.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    In many cases better then private, private does not imply best, those that are the old "public" schools imply best. There are a great many relatively average private schools, I imagine not least because of just how bad some of the state schools are.
    There are some state schools that aren't up to scratch I agree, and I too feel it best to work on making those better rather than abolishing private schools which would end up making everyone worse off. I also welcome emiloujess' point that sometimes private is the only option for some.

    It is always worth pointing out, that even though a great many seem to have a problem understanding the concept, it is generally best to lift the bottom up rather than drag the top down.
    Aye, I agree with this completely. In my younger day I did fall victim to the "politics of envy" in which if everyone was in the same position as myself then somehow I'd be better off. However, a private education for many does give them an unmerited advantage, but I'd rather address this using other means rather than the method that the author suggests, even though I am sympathetic.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    How is the response "right-wing"? Is wanting the best education for your child exclusive to the right wing then?
    Just because you believe something to be beneficial to a country or economy doesn't stop it being more right-wing or more left-wing...

    Also I wasn't even saying whether I though it was good or bad, just surprise at the lack of diversity of opinions represented in this thread.

    Chill.
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    It is quite right-wing to be pro-privatization which is essentially what this is; honestly, I think there are pros and cons to private school, although I believe you should be free to opt for a better education for your children, is it really fair that only those who can afford the fees get that option? Surely it's giving children higher-income households an unfair advantage?

    In my opinion, there should be more state-run grammar schools so teaching can be targeted, allowing students at both grammar and comprehensive schools to excel.

    As I said though, I'm not completely against public schools and I see where you're coming from.
    I think banning private schools is a far-left idea rather than not banning them right-wing, but I see where you are coming from.

    I believe in the equality of opportunity but worsening education for some just isn't right (even if they were paying for a better education).

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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    Just because you believe something to be beneficial to a country or economy doesn't stop it being more right-wing or more left-wing...

    Also I wasn't even saying whether I though it was good or bad, just surprise at the lack of diversity of opinions represented in this thread.

    Chill.
    I wasn't commenting on whether you thought it was a good/bad idea, I just don't see why you think the response is right-wing. Much of the rationale people have given aren't exclusive to those with right-wing views (namely, that as James mentions, it's a parent's liberty to send their child to the place that is best for them).

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    I'm pretty chilled haha, my post was not intended to be aggressive
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    Just because you believe something to be beneficial to a country or economy doesn't stop it being more right-wing or more left-wing...

    Also I wasn't even saying whether I though it was good or bad, just surprise at the lack of diversity of opinions represented in this thread.

    Chill.
    As a left winger I must say that your initial analysis was a little unfair. I am against this bill not because I don't want to see private schools gone, but because simply abolishing them isn't the way I'd like to go about it. In many cases state schools do better than private schools, in many more cases they do just as good a job as private schools. We need to increase this trend and make private schools redundant as well as work on the unfair advantage that the privately educated get. This means more investment in state education (a left wing stance) and a little more regulation in the workplace (another left wing stance).
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    There are some state schools that aren't up to scratch I agree, and I too feel it best to work on making those better rather than abolishing private schools which would end up making everyone worse off. I also welcome emiloujess' point that sometimes private is the only option for some.



    Aye, I agree with this completely. In my younger day I did fall victim to the "politics of envy" in which if everyone was in the same position as myself then somehow I'd be better off. However, a private education for many does give them an unmerited advantage, but I'd rather address this using other means rather than the method that the author suggests, even though I am sympathetic.
    I'd it unmerited? Suppose I were to live in the north east, or Scotland, and went to a good private school there due to a lack of exceptional state schools, would that be any less meritorious than of we were to, instead, move to areas of the south of England and go to an exceptional state school?

    At the end of the day, the first one would have you branding success unmeritorious, whether it actually is or not, whilst the second, given the state school being involved, would be perfectly fine.

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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    As a left winger I must say that your initial analysis was a little unfair. I am against this bill not because I don't want to see private schools gone, but because simply abolishing them isn't the way I'd like to go about it. In many cases state schools do better than private schools, in many more cases they do just as good a job as private schools. We need to increase this trend and make private schools redundant as well as work on the unfair advantage that the privately educated get. This means more investment in state education (a left wing stance) and a little more regulation in the workplace (another left wing stance).
    there's actually been research recently which suggests that students from state schools obtain better degrees than those from private schools
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I'd it unmerited? Suppose I were to live in the north east, or Scotland, and went to a good private school there due to a lack of exceptional state schools, would that be any less meritorious than of we were to, instead, move to areas of the south of England and go to an exceptional state school?
    If you only got into that good private school due to your parents ability to pay for it then it was unmerited.

    At the end of the day, the first one would have you branding success unmeritorious, whether it actually is or not, whilst the second, given the state school being involved, would be perfectly fine.

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    The point of state education is the universal nature of it, anyone can go to a state school and anyone in a state school is on a level playing field. However, that is not the case with private schools.
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    there's actually been research recently which suggests that students from state schools obtain better degrees than those from private schools
    Yet when it comes to employment the privately educated earn more than the state educated. It goes even further, the smartest state educated pupils will earn less than the least capable privately educated ones.
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    (Original post by nverjvlev)
    woah, did not expect such a right-wing response...
    I'm a definite left-winger but I'm not supporting this. For a start, it takes away private property without any compensation which is at odds with EU law and something I don't believe can be justified here - regardless of whether we support them or not these people have often been working for a very long time to give children a better education, and we're about to take from them their property and their livelihood out of ideology.

    Secondly, so long as we have differential levels of wealth in a society, it will be possible for the rich to give their children superior educations be it through private tuition out of schools, things as simple as having more time to foster their talents at home, or as extreme as sending them to boarding schools outside of Britain who would be all too happy to provide an English-language education for a price with none of our regulation on it. Abolishing British private schools won't fix the problem, just push it further away where we can't have any control over it at all. It will also be possible for teachers to be attracted elsewhere, either abroad or to more fiscally prosperous professions, which means we'd lose some of the best talent from our education system.

    For me, our effort must instead go towards creating the best and most inclusive public sector education system we can, and more generally working towards a society where every family is in a position to raise their children to the best of their ability without the stress of excessive work hours or monetary worries.

    My comrade @Saracen's Fez also pointed out when we discussed this that it would negatively impact our budget - suddenly thousands of children whose parents pay for their education would have it funded by the state instead, which means less money in the pot for those who can't afford private education, not more.

    As an alternative, I would support the removal of charitable status for such institutions and tighter regulations on them (such as better enforcement of the national curriculum).
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    Whenever I read a text from the left, I have the feeling it's always the same "tax, ban, tax". I would prefer to see "innovate, create, develop".
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    The point of state education is the universal nature of it, anyone can go to a state school and anyone in a state school is on a level playing field. However, that is not the case with private schools.
    Even then, there are ways of gaming the state education system. If there is a superior state school, wealthier families are more likely to be able to afford to buy a house in the catchment area which can deprive the long term local residents of a space in the school (I believe there's a panorama documentary on this). This effect may be worsened if there are no private schools.

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