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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Yeah you're right.
    Wearing next to nothing isn't as oppressive as the burqa.
    It's much worse.
    Why?
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    Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

    This proof is invalid for the following reasons:

    1) You cannot prove that the veil itself is a form of oppression unless you are able to conduct either an accurate survey or some form of a natural experiment. Many Muslim women want to wear the veil out of choice (derived from their set of beliefs).
    2) The veil is a positive function of the existence of Men. So of-course if there weren't males there would be no need to wear the veil in the first place.
    3) Regarding the swimming example, there are alternatives to swimming in a Burqa such as swimming in areas segregated by gender.
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    Here's a documentary on how the veil came into existence and what it meant to the ancient world (thus Islam). http://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik Watch 21:25-27:40 and 46:33-53:32 it's a documentary on the ascent of women in society from the ancient world to the modern one.
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    I also get where you're coming from but tbf it's religious garnment. You seem really emotional over a piece of garnment that you've never worn before and therefore have no experience of it.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    You got me there, absolutely brilliant argument.
    'Many women who wear the face veil are forced to.'

    So how many ACTUAL Muslim women have you spoken to and heard this from?

    (Articles from the Daily Fail don't count)
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    (Original post by PPF)
    Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

    This proof is invalid for the following reasons:

    1) You cannot prove that the veil itself is a form of oppression unless you are able to conduct either an accurate survey or some form of a natural experiment. Many Muslim women want to wear the veil out of choice (derived from their set of beliefs).
    2) The veil is a positive function of the existence of Men. So of-course if there weren't males there would be no need to wear the veil in the first place.
    3) Regarding the swimming example, there are alternatives to swimming in a Burqa such as swimming in areas segregated by gender.
    Your retorts are fair. 2 is especially important... Obviously the burka is useless if men don't exist. But still, it doesn't deal with the innate problem of these demands being pretty damn arbitrary and unequal for seemingly no non-scripturally justifiable reason.
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    Islam is a religion which was invented by Mohammed using Christian and Jewish beliefs in order to make the religion seem older than it actually is. It is a fusion of these two religions and the Arabian Pagan believes of the people living in those times. Mohammed made himself a prophet and downgraded Jesus to the level of a prophet in order to make himself seem like a leader who is so great that God has entrusted him with a sacred duty. This is extremely common in the ancient world (film 300) where leaders made themselves Gods or understudies of Gods so their people wouldn't be afraid in battle and their enemies would be. Islam's Sharia law comes from in part the ancient Assyrian Laws which were almost copied word for word on some points. It's based on the idea that women are fundamentally lesser than Men and that this isn't a man made concept but is in fact God's will. Women must cover themselves up because their bodies are only meant to be seen by their owners (Husbands). Polygamy is also a Assyrian pastime with the same rules as in Islam.
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    Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

    Here is a little test that proves that bikinis are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while burqas aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear bikinis in the Arctic or when it's snowing? Is the bikini practical in the situations where a burqa could be worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing bikinis on the Arctic circle or when it is snowing. They would be wearing a lot, if anything, as being naked is not practical for such activities.

    Not interested in engaging with the OP anyway. Just read this because I came across PPF's post which imo was a well written.
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    (Original post by PPF)
    Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

    This proof is invalid for the following reasons:

    1) You cannot prove that the veil itself is a form of oppression unless you are able to conduct either an accurate survey or some form of a natural experiment. Many Muslim women want to wear the veil out of choice (derived from their set of beliefs).
    2) The veil is a positive function of the existence of Men. So of-course if there weren't males there would be no need to wear the veil in the first place.
    3) Regarding the swimming example, there are alternatives to swimming in a Burqa such as swimming in areas segregated by gender.
    The fact you've made a little numbered list and dismissed my argument as "invalid" unfortunately doesn't change the fact that your response is empty. The burqa and bikini are argued as being oppressive because they supposedly are imposed on women by men. The burqa is an imposition on Muslim women, imposed on them by patriarchal traditions that go back thousands of years. Wearing a burqa is not practical, comfortable, and only exists to appease men. Therefore it is oppressive. Even if they choose to wear it, it is still something worn that indicates submission to a patriachal demand. On the other hand, I have proven that without men, women would still be wearing the bikini in certain situations, or even less, so the bikini is not imposed on women, and it is therefore not oppressive.
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    (Original post by MrKmas508)
    Here's a documentary on how the veil came into existence and what it meant to the ancient world (thus Islam). http://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik Watch 21:25-27:40 and 46:33-53:32 it's a documentary on the ascent of women in society from the ancient world to the modern one.
    Everyone should watch this.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The fact you've made a little numbered list and dismissed my argument as "invalid" unfortunately doesn't change the fact that your response is empty. The burqa and bikini are argued as being oppressive because they supposedly are imposed on women by men. The burqa is an imposition on Muslim women, imposed on them by patriarchal traditions that go back thousands of years. Wearing a burqa is not practical, comfortable, and only exists to appease men. Therefore it is oppressive. Even if they choose to wear it, it is still something worn that indicates submission to a patriachal demand. On the other hand, I have proven that without men, women would still be wearing the bikini in certain situations, or even less, so the bikini is not imposed on women, and it is therefore not oppressive.
    1) Do you have any statistical evidence to illustrate the relationship between the veil and oppression?
    2) The burqa may be imposed in certain areas but not everywhere. It is seen as a mechanism to achieve a religious objective. You can disagree, as i do, with the objectives laid out by Islam but many people accept them.
    3) Wearing a burqa is actually quite comfortable I would imagine as its just like a gown.
    4) The burqa is imposed in the sense that its seen as a decree from god - in order to achieve a certain objective in the world which then translates into a successful afterlife. The same applies to the five daily prayers. Why don't you mention that being oppressive? Muslims have to wake up everyday early morning to pray. Its obligatory for them. Isn't that oppressive?

    Ultimately its up to the people to decide. If someone wants to wear it then you should have no objection, unless it imposes a threat to you.
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    (Original post by DiceTheSlice)
    Here is a little test that proves that bikinis are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while burqas aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear bikinis in the Arctic or when it's snowing? Is the bikini practical in the situations where a burqa could be worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing bikinis on the Arctic circle or when it is snowing. They would be wearing a lot, if anything, as being naked is not practical for such activities.
    False equivilancy. Womens' decision to wear weather-appropiate clothing is independant to the existence of men.

    Do women ever wear bikinis in the Arctic circle or in the snow? A burkha isn't what a non-muslim would wear because it's cold. They'd wear a big coat.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Everyone should watch this.
    I think so to, the whole episode was extremely interesting and I hate modern day western feminists. Both in the Bible and Quran almost all the stories,rules and quotes are copies from older texts however those texts are from other texts so it's kind of like Chinese whispers. Being an ancient historian allows you see religion not as a way of life but instead as a ideology manufactured from different sources from throughout the region. The Noah's ark story is an extremely common one which can be heard from throughout Eurasia and is thought to have originated from China. Also could you like my comment on the links to the video because I also want more people to watch it.
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    (Original post by MrKmas508)
    I think so to, the whole episode was extremely interesting and I hate modern day western feminists. Both in the Bible and Quran almost all the stories,rules and quotes are copies from older texts however those texts are from other texts so it's kind of like Chinese whispers. Being an ancient historian allows you see religion not as a way of life but instead as a ideology manufactured from different sources from throughout the region. The Noah's ark story is an extremely common one which can be heard from throughout Eurasia and is thought to have originated from China. Also could you like my comment on the links to the video because I also want more people to watch it.
    Unfortunately it won't all me to rep you. And yes, I remember reading the Epic of Gilgamesh, which contains a story of a great flood which sounds very similar to the one Noah sailed over.
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    I think that it is far more oppressive to dictate what women should wear, hijab or no hijab.
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    "The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap"

    I agree about the burqa being crap but so is the bikini. I prefer that they wear FA. What if women started wearing burqinis?
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    (Original post by Laomedeia)
    "The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap"

    I agree about the burqa being crap but so is the bikini. I prefer that they wear FA. What if women started wearing burqinis?
    Burqinis... Types furiously away on keyboard. FA?
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    I'm currently growing a beard and the 'awkward stage' is upon me. If anyone does have a burqa that they'd be willing to lend me for use in my excursions in the interim I would be more than happy to pay for its postage to South America.
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    (Original post by MJlover)
    its not a symbol of oppression, its a sign of respect for women's bodies and a decency for us.
    You realise your avatar image sums-up the problem with that religion?
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    Regarding the burqa, it's needed because we know how Muslim males see women just as sex objects.
 
 
 
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