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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    Or the commonly seen "Ed Milliband"...
    That is more common, yes. :lol:
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If raising the threshold 100% covers cuts to tax credits then I support it, but it doesn't cover that at the moment.
    I don't think it's fair to say they were brought into bribe voters. You acknowledge that people on tax credits are not scroungers, and they help people who've gone out and got a job to be able to afford to live.

    But even if they were a bribe, the fact they have helped millions afford to live is certainly a good thing. There is no 'dependency' here.

    If you want to stop people needing them, then increase wages significantly to an amount to completely cover the losses to working tax credits.
    It's difficult for governments to control wage rates. Push too high and business moves.

    I'd much rather see a push to improve productivity to over come wage stagnation.

    That requires a grown up balanced approach. Not short term fixes.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    It's difficult for governments to control wage rates. Push too high and business moves.

    I'd much rather see a push to improve productivity to over come wage stagnation.

    That requires a grown up balanced approach. Not short term fixes.
    Your not very compassionate are you? I guess you voted conservative in the last election?
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    (Original post by xxvine)
    Your not very compassionate are you? I guess you voted conservative in the last election?
    I'd rather the root cause of the problem was addressed. Not borrowing money you don't have and giving it away isn't a solution.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I'd rather the root cause of the problem was addressed.
    The root cause of the problem is that our economy does not have enough work for the people in it.

    You say people on tax credits are holding themselves back on 16 hours or whatever.

    That's the point! If they were forced to go for 32 hours that is someone else with 0 hours. And then you'll turn around and blame them for being on the dole.

    I simply do not understand this belief in the magic jobs tree
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I'd rather the root cause of the problem was addressed. Not borrowing money you don't have and giving it away isn't a solution.
    Surely all 'borrowing' is money you don't have?

    It seems like the tories have successfully made 'borrowing' into a dirty word - ignoring the fact we had more surpluses in labour's first term then we have had in the past few decades under the tories.

    Borrowing to invest and stimulate growth is a basic economic theory that anyone who's ever been so much as near an a-level text book (a group that doesn't include our chancellor) would know.

    We had more successive quarters of growth than at any time before. It's not labour's or Gordon Browns fault for the global financial crash and you know it. The markets didn't crash because Gordon brown spent money on schools and hospitals, it didn't crags ev cause we spent money on cancer machines.

    It crashed due to de-regulation of financial sector - not because of investment.


    And here's the kicker, the tories have borrowed even more on 5 years than slab our did in 13.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The root cause of the problem is that our economy does not have enough work for the people in it.
    I beg to differ
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34526655

    From where I sit at the skilled end of the market, the problem isn't too many jobs, it is too few skilled workers
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33478930
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The root cause of the problem is that our economy does not have enough work for the people in it.

    You say people on tax credits are holding themselves back on 16 hours or whatever.

    That's the point! If they were forced to go for 32 hours that is someone else with 0 hours. And then you'll turn around and blame them for being on the dole.

    I simply do not understand this belief in the magic jobs tree
    We have the highest number of jobs ever and one of the lowest unemployment rates in 40 years.

    I said that 'some' people on tax credits 'may' be holding themselves back. Just like my GFs office administrator who wanted unemployent because benefits paid her more than work when factoring in things like childcare.

    The magic jobs tree is quite simple. Ask yourself the question. How have the vast majority of the workforce managed to find work and stay in work?

    Of the 5.5% unemployed at the moment. Half will find work shortly, the remaining half will be long term unemployed. How has 97.5% of the workforce managed it?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    And here's the kicker, the tories have borrowed even more on 5 years than slab our did in 13.
    We know. That's the result of labours train wreck of an economic policy.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8688470.stm
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We know. That's the result of labours train wreck of an economic policy.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8688470.stm
    what party do you belong to? UKIP?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We know. That's the result of labours train wreck of an economic policy.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8688470.stm
    The same train wreck that the tories backed? The same one that Osborne promised to back pound for pound in spending and borrowing?

    To in any way tie borrowing to the global financial crash is absurd.
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    (Original post by xxvine)
    what party do you belong to? UKIP?
    How does criticism of Labour's economic policy point to somebody being a UKIP supporter?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We have the highest number of jobs ever and one of the lowest unemployment rates in 40 years.

    I said that 'some' people on tax credits 'may' be holding themselves back. Just like my GFs office administrator who wanted unemployent because benefits paid her more than work when factoring in things like childcare.

    The magic jobs tree is quite simple. Ask yourself the question. How have the vast majority of the workforce managed to find work and stay in work?

    Of the 5.5% unemployed at the moment. Half will find work shortly, the remaining half will be long term unemployed. How has 97.5% of the workforce managed it?
    I find it strange how you attribute every single job to the government.
    The main reasons for the increases are the huge explosions in zero hour contracts and the self - employed. Not because businessss are creating more jobs.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    How does criticism of Labour's economic policy point to somebody being a UKIP supporter?
    Suggesting labour's economic policy caused the global economic crash is the type of intelligence deployed by a UKIP supporter.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I find it strange how you attribute every single job to the government.
    The main reasons for the increases are the huge explosions in zero hour contracts and the self - employed. Not because businessss are creating more jobs.
    Why do you consider job creation bad news?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Why do you consider job creation bad news?
    I don't.
    But you have to look beyond the label and look at the substance and see that many of these jobs are very poorly paid and have very little security such as zero hour contracts where workers can be sacked at any time with no compensation.

    I want more jobs, but I want jobs that are well paid and secure.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We have the highest number of jobs ever and one of the lowest unemployment rates in 40 years.
    Yes, because hours are being spread among employees. Therefore, for 35 hours of available work, we can have 5 employees doing 7 hours each and otherwise supported on tax credits.

    The present government has further incentivised this through their promotion of zero-hours contracts and other employment liberalisation, while before there was a higher fixed cost to taking on extra staff.

    This is, overall, the fairest way to distribute work among the population. However, this drive towards lower headline unemployment obviates the possibility of employees getting more hours, and makes tax credits indispensable.

    I said that 'some' people on tax credits 'may' be holding themselves back. Just like my GFs office administrator who wanted unemployent because benefits paid her more than work when factoring in things like childcare.
    But these are weasel words. How many are there? Are there statistics on this? Why should they push themselves, does work make you free? And if they did push themselves, it would break the system laid out above, because the bottom line is there is not enough available work for everybody to work full-time.

    People "holding themselves back" are thus propping up the system described above, which the Labour and Conservative governments have created in order to deal firstly with the effect of the economic rebalancing towards more labour-elastic industries and secondly with the high headline unemployment which ensued in the 1980s and 1990s.

    The magic jobs tree is quite simple. Ask yourself the question. How have the vast majority of the workforce managed to find work and stay in work?

    Of the 5.5% unemployed at the moment. Half will find work shortly, the remaining half will be long term unemployed. How has 97.5% of the workforce managed it?
    Well, there is an economic recovery underway which is a natural upswing of the business cycle. So there is some genuine growth not just in jobs but in overall man-hours too. Aside from that, however, the reason for these record low unemployment rates - in an economy whose post-recession growth has been weak compared to past recessions - is the employment liberalisation described above.

    Since a major part of it involves dividing up limited available work between several different people in order to reduce headline unemployment, that metric becomes increasingly useless for economic analysis: in fact, the only thing it is useful for is for Conservative re-election propaganda.

    So I fail to comprehend why you continue to use headline unemployment rather than a metric which accurately reflects the reality of the modern labour market as created both by New Labour and the Tories.

    Further, long-term unemployment is a sham figure, especially if you are using it to indicate that the people are somehow unemployable or structurally unemployed. That's because it's only defined as a period of unemployment lasting longer than a year. We see from graphs of long-term unemployment that it tracks the economic fortunes of the country, which makes sense because economies do not stationarise over such short periods. Long-term unemployment therefore shows principally cyclical unemployment, the same as short-term unemployment. A metric properly stationarised across the business cycle is required to assess structural unemployment.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I find it strange how you attribute every single job to the government.
    The main reasons for the increases are the huge explosions in zero hour contracts and the self - employed. Not because businessss are creating more jobs.
    Not quite.

    Zero hour contracts account for only 2.3% of jobs.

    60% of people on zero hour contracts want to be on them.

    That means that a little over 1% of jobs in the uk are filled by zero hour contract staff after more hours.

    https://fullfact.org/factcheck/econo...ts_facts-41165
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Not quite.

    Zero hour contracts account for only 2.3% of jobs.

    60% of people on zero hour contracts want to be on them.

    That means that a little over 1% of jobs in the uk are filled by zero hour contract staff after more hours.

    https://fullfact.org/factcheck/econo...ts_facts-41165
    We're talking about the 'new jobs' rather than all the jobs. They're a much higher proportion of the new jobs that have been created.

    Of course I'm happy there are more jobs, but i'm not happy that so many of them are low paid on an insecure contract with no guarantee of hours.
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    (Original post by xxvine)
    what party do you belong to? UKIP?
    Worse. While he seems to support whatever line the Tory leadership pump out (the right have always known how to follow the leader better than anyone), his expressed opinions place him on the Thatcherite right of the party. On the economy these people are significantly further right than UKIP supporters.

    Although UKIP is funded and led by Thatcherite ultras often more extreme than say the CWF/Iain Duncan Smith axis of the Conservative Party, their voters, members and rhetoric are usually left-wing labour market protectionist.
 
 
 
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