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    (Original post by VV Cephei A)
    Almost as reductionist as making sweeping, incorrect statements about vegan diets being healthier than meat-based diets, which vegans never hesitate to do.
    I never stated that it was far healthier...i stated that it's not more difficult to get protein from a vegan diet as someone above suggested. Proteins exist and are high in many plants.I was merely going back to the person above informing them that it's actually not difficult never did i once claim it was healthier or bash omnivores. And your statement here is again sweeping, claiming that all vegans do this. From the forums that i view on TSR meat eaters have a high propensity for claiming vegans and vegetarians are unhealthy and have no clue about health. I think people should try to be more open minded and never make sweeping statements because they place people into boxes.

    (Original post by The Rad Prince)
    There are no vegan children, only the children of vegan parents.
    Parents choose what their kids eat. Same goes for all kids. Kids eat meat because their parents give it to them, kids drink soda because their parents give it to them, kids eat high salt snacks because their parents give them to their kids...
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    "Often those who criticise reveal what he himself lacks"

    NB: I am neither a vegetarian nor a vegan
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    This is getting into the realms of telling what you can and can not feed your children.
    Is it? And is it more so than banning turkey twizzlers, chocolate bars and coke, etc.?


    (Original post by LinnyPinny77)
    Parents choose what their kids eat. Same goes for all kids. Kids eat meat because their parents give it to them, kids drink soda because their parents give it to them, kids eat high salt snacks because their parents give them to their kids...
    There are no children who eat meat, only the children of parents who eat meat.
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    (Original post by e aí rapaz)
    Is it? And is it more so than banning turkey twizzlers, chocolate bars and coke, etc.?
    Yes.

    Probably not.




    I lived on Marmite sandwiches (still do) so I probably was pretty vegan a lot of the time at lunch. Well vegetarian anyway.
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    (Original post by Fat Rudeboi)
    This.

    It's harder to get all the protein you need on a vegan diet, would the school be working this out?
    This just isn't really true, despite it being what everyone always says. You need about half a gram per kg of body weight to avoid deficiency.

    If you eat 2000 calories of almost anything you will get enough protein, even if you just eat (a lot of) mashed potato.

    And if you add nuts, which are really good protein sources as long as it isn't Brazil nuts you are eating (too high in methionine).

    There is also considerations to be made about what constitutes health? However one chooses to answer this question, the ramifications are complex.

    Long post:
    Low-protein diets are linked to longevity. So there's this "strong today, gone tomorrow" thing going on, because low-protein makes it impossible to be e.g. a rugby player or a boxer. Across many animal species, such as rodents, ones that gain lots of muscle tend to live less long.

    It's actually linked to a process called autophagy (and proteasome).

    Basically, if you are constantly ingesting protein, your body never goes into the self-eating autophagy mode, where it clears away rogue proteins. This is also linked to alzheimers, which is basically a kind of rogue protein (or, prions) that never gets cleared away if autophagy isn't working well enough (it's no coincidence that the longest lived recorded person ever, Jean Calment, was utterly lucid and witty up until her last breath).

    This is also part of why intermittent fasting, as well as aerobic exercise is thought to have health benefits: it activates autophagy (resistance exercise inhibits it).

    It's also slightly more complicated than just how much protein you eat. This is why I mentioned Brazil nuts earlier. They are really high in an amino acid called methionine, restriction of that protein has been especially linked to longevity, as well as resistance to disease. Again, for body builders, this is actually why whey protein is so popular, as its very rich in methionine.

    Generally meat products are very rich in methionine compared to plants. Its more or less uniform across meat/fish/dairy, although shellfish is a bit lower. Then there are certain plant sources e.g. Brazil nuts, some kinds of seeds like sesame and sunflower. But generally speaking, plant proteins are low, especially e.g. cabbages, soy/tofu/tempeh, cannabis/hemp, nuts especially almond and ginkgo biloba, (except Brazils), lentils.

    Even amongst a given protein intake, autophagy/proteasome clearing up of rogue proteins is more efficient under methionine restriction. Hence, it makes perfect sense that eating less meat has health benefits, and not necessarily because of fat and cholesterol (although too much cholesterol is probably a bad thing).

    Then you also, on the dairy side, have galactose, which is actually used in the lab to mimic accelerated aging. It also inhibits autophagy. So there's that.

    I'm personally a flexitarian who eats meat/fish very rarely. I sometimes eat Roquefort (none of the pasteurised English crap). The only thing that's essential from meat/fish/dairy is B12, and you can also get that from supplements.

    I personally believe the science of eating less meat and less methionine, and maybe even less protein to a certain extent, is overwhelming. I don't believe that it's really rationally possible to care about maintaining lucidity into old age, while not caring about the above considerations.
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    (Original post by The Rad Prince)
    Meat is part of a healthy and balanced diet
    Tell me what is it that you can only get from meat?

    It cannot be protein, because nuts, beans, lentils, cacao, pasta/noodles all have that. Even rice has protein in reasonabe amounts.

    It cannot be iron, because spinach/leafy greens is rich in iron, as is dark chocolate (richer even than beef in fact) and many seeds.

    Actually zinc is probably harder, but again you can get this from dark chocolate (which covers ever mineral except selenium), adzuki beans, cashew nuts, pumpkin seeds.

    Selenium? Well there's brown rice, and various other things.

    Calcium, again there's plenty in leafy greens (and dark chocolate).

    The only thing that I can see lacking is vitamins B12 and to an extent B3. But you can supplement these easily by taking B vitamins...
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    I'm not keen on the idea.

    I'm going to throw this out here but veganism has similarities to religion. Not this thread in particular but I feel like I'm being told how to live my life.
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    Yes there are I am and my parents are meat eaters and being vegans great like ew who the f in their right mind would eat meat... if it was raw etc... proves that we're not MEANT to eat meat
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    It's worth noting that they're not a public school, and that they're located in California. The rest of the nation is not following their lead any time soon. California is extremely left-wing.

    While you can get all your nutrients from plants, I don't think it's preferable. You would have to graze on plants all day long and have very little time for anything else. Think about how much time cows spend eating grass.

    Red meat might be another story, but I think chicken and fish can be really good for you. Especially if raised and cooked properly.

    Those parents withdrawing their children from the school isn't that extreme, really. They're paying thousands of dollars for a service in this case, and if they don't like it, they have every right to stop paying for it and put their child back in public schools. Some parents will love it, others will hate it.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    It's worth noting that they're not a public school, and that they're located in California. The rest of the nation is not following their lead any time soon. California is extremely left-wing.
    It's a shame that not wanting to participate in the horrific suffering inflicted upon tens of billions of nonhuman animals and the massive environmental damage that meat production does can be labelled a "left-wing" thing to do.

    The article also mentions a vegetarian school in England, by the way. I suppose you'd say that Britain is extremely left-wing as well, at least compared to the United States, but again, it's sad that reducing one's impact on other sentient beings and the environment should be labelled in a political manner.

    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    While you can get all your nutrients from plants, I don't think it's preferable. You would have to graze on plants all day long
    You can't be serious. You're not being serious. Are you?

    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    Those parents withdrawing their children from the school isn't that extreme, really. They're paying thousands of dollars for a service in this case, and if they don't like it, they have every right to stop paying for it and put their child back in public schools. Some parents will love it, others will hate it.
    Agreed. They still have the choice of withdrawing their child from this private school, although I would also advocate for state schools to go vegan as well, in which case people could bring in a packed lunch if they're really that fussed.

    Luckily, student numbers at the school are at a record high now: clearly, it's not that much of an issue for many people.
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    (Original post by Raiden10)
    Low-protein diets are linked to longevity. So there's this "strong today, gone tomorrow" thing going on, because low-protein makes it impossible to be e.g. a rugby player or a boxer.
    Can you elaborate on this? As you say, "low protein" rather than vegetarianism - basically if they can stuff themselves on protein from other sources, it should be fine. However, there are no Hindu professional footballers... which is kind of random, I know, please don't get hung up on this point - this is just a random observation that made me wonder in the past whether, in general, there is a link between vegetarianism and lack of athleticism in professional sports.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)

    While you can get all your nutrients from plants, I don't think it's preferable. You would have to graze on plants all day long and have very little time for anything else. Think about how much time cows spend eating grass.

    .
    That's just wrong, unbelievably wrong. I'm gonna assume that you aren't trolling.

    Plant foods are not all cabbage. You also have things like nuts, beans, olive oil, wheat/pasta etc.

    Pasta with olive oil and sprinkled nuts, dark chocolate, these are calorie and nutrient dense foods.

    It seems most people have no cotton picking clue about nutrition.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    It's a shame that not wanting to participate in the horrific suffering inflicted upon tens of billions of nonhuman animals and the massive environmental damage that meat production does can be labelled a "left-wing" thing to do.

    The article also mentions a vegetarian school in England, by the way. I suppose you'd say that Britain is extremely left-wing as well, at least compared to the United States, but again, it's sad that reducing one's impact on other sentient beings and the environment should be labelled in a political manner.
    Animals are not sentient beings, and there are plenty of things that can be done in the meat industry to reduce the environmental impact. If we stop doing everything that might hurt the environment, we won't have any quality of life to speak of.

    You can't be serious. You're not being serious. Are you?
    I'm exaggerating, but only slightly. It's a less efficient way for the body to get nutrients, at least if we're only talking about naturally grown foods. Some synthetic foods produced from plants show promise, however.

    I'm mostly thinking of complete proteins and amino acids found in meat, as well as Vitamin B12, and a certain kind of iron more easily absorbed by the body. If anything, women need meat more than men do because of iron.

    Agreed. They still have the choice of withdrawing their child from this private school, although I would also advocate for state schools to go vegan as well, in which case people could bring in a packed lunch if they're really that fussed.
    I don't think state schools should go vegan, but as long as they allow people to bring a packed lunch, it's not that big a deal.
    Luckily, student numbers at the school are at a record high now: clearly, it's not that much of an issue for many people.
    I really don't see a school lunch as a huge issue by itself, but I don't like the overall trend of considering animals as sentient and putting society on the path to forcing vegan ideas on people whether they believe in them or not.
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    (Original post by llys)
    Can you elaborate on this? As you say, "low protein" rather than vegetarianism - basically if they can stuff themselves on protein from other sources, it should be fine. However, there are no Hindu professional footballers... which is kind of random, I know, please don't get hung up on this point - this is just a random observation that made me wonder in the past whether, in general, there is a link between vegetarianism and lack of athleticism in professional sports.
    There are loads out there, vegan/veggie athletes. E.g. Serena and Venus Williams, Billie Jean King from tennis.

    Vegan doesn't have to be low protein, almond butter, soybeans etc. They are great protein-containing foods.

    Much of the high protein mantra seems to be encouraged by the dairy industry. It's also gained popularity for dieting, although Atkinism as an approach to dieting isn't a very good one (the weight tends to balloon back on easily, as people haven't resolved their prediabetic metabolism).

    Bear in mind the simple fact that almost nobody in western cultures is vegetarian, so you won't see many plant-based athletes because there are not many plant-based people. The only real use of meat (besides B vitamins which can be supplemented) is to facilitate the building of muscles.

    For enough protein to sustain a normal build, plant foods are easily able to do this without even really thinking. Just eat e.g. pasta and olive oil (perhaps pesto for cheagans, of which I am one), beans/lentuls/legumes, nuts e.g. almond butter, even things like peas are 5% protein, rice is 5-7% I can't remember. Basically everything besides green veggies has fair protein.

    For people who don't bench press etc, the only downside to plant foods is B vitamins, basically B3, B6 and B12.

    There's also this thing about "complete protein", which is basically a myth. Just checking nutritiondata.com shows all the plant foods contain all the amino acids, in varying amounts. The only consistent(ish) trend is that they tend to contain less methionine and serine, but this in any case beneficial to restrict, from many points of view. Plus they still contain some!!

    Partly the "complete protein" thing comes from the dairy industry where people want feeds to be higher in methionine in order to facilitate easier muscle growth, and they are feeding these animals growth hormones etc. to make more meat on that steak. But people aren't cows.

    In fact, this is part of how BSE originated, as animal protein was mixed in with the natural plant protein in order to increase methionine, upregulate IGF-1 and increase muscle growth in the cows. However prion disease arose, probably because of activation of MTOR and inhibition of autophagy.
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    So it's a concentration camp.
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    as a personal trainor an pe teacher my main concern would be protein. everyone needs some meat in there body but i agree not too much or you get fat xxx
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    (Original post by shooks)
    Fascinating article on the Guardian about a school that switched its meals to be entirely vegan, in order to make it more sustainable.

    Head teacher of MUSE school Jeff King says: “We teach our students how much more land and water are needed to produce a pound of beef versus grain, and we couldn’t truly call ourselves sustainable without eating this way.”

    The school, which sources almost half its produce from its own gardens, announced plans to move to entirely plant-based lunches and snacks – a programme it calls One Meal a Day for the Planet – over two years.

    “It wasn’t easy,” King says. “There was a lot of fear, especially with parents of younger children, around brain development and how it relates to meat consumption. Our census took a hit: in the first year we lost a lot of families because of this.”

    Full story on The Guardian

    What do you think of this? Is it a positive move towards sustainability, or a step too far?
    Their leader Monsanto won't be happy.
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    (Original post by sportykitty)
    as a personal trainor an pe teacher my main concern would be protein. everyone needs some meat in there body but i agree not too much or you get fat xxx
    As a vegetarian and person who is alive and in good health, I can assure you that everyone does not need "some meat in their body".
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    (Original post by e aí rapaz)
    As a vegetarian and person who is alive and in good health, I can assure you that everyone does not need "some meat in their body".
    your probably not very fit or muscly tho hun? ye you can be in good health xxx
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    (Original post by sportykitty)
    your probably not very fit or muscly tho hun? ye you can be in good health xxx
    Haha yes, I work out. I'm 6ft1 and 95kg, not fat. Even if I wasn't, you said ALL people need meat. You were wrong. I feel kind of worried that you claim to be an educator.
 
 
 
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