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How is Germany coping with refugees? watch

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    (Original post by Callous Twits)
    arabic is such an ugly language.
    Honestly, I disagree, it's not stand out amazing like the south Asian Sunni kids on this website like to circlejerk too, but I do find it really cool

    Persian is really beautiful and feminine, whereas Arabic is more masculine, I guess you could say based on the languages, it makes sense that the Arabs won the war with Persia, but the Persians created the intellectual golden age. Sort of like Greek culture vs Roman culture, the Persians being analagous to the Greeks
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    (Original post by Doug Stamper)
    You're a victim of scaremongering, it's dangerous when the press has such influence over weak minded individuals such as yourself.
    I happen to be a migrant(Specifically Canadian) and wanted to say:

    Err... Actually, Sweden stopped publishing reports about racial statistics in 1996, but...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

    Migrants made up 63% of all convictions for rape for years before they stopped reporting racial demographics for crime. This despite making up only 6.5% of the population. All told, that would indicate that migrants are more likely.

    That doesn't discuss reasons the issue occurs or give any meaning to the statistic at all aside from pure mathematical fact. In this case, it would seem migrants are 2449% more likely to be convicted of sexual assault in Sweden.

    At least based upon the last time the information was made available.

    There's a very simple way for the government to ease this sort of 'scaremongering', if that's what it is: Release the racial demographic numbers for crime. If it's simple scaremongering, then we can very easily see that based upon the data. To make the data more meaningful, include social and economic data as well.

    If it isn't scaremongering, then that's a conversation that has to be had. Not trusting people to make good decisions with real data just results in these sorts of 'He said/She Said' arguments where everyone is passionately sure they're right based upon anecdotal evidence.

    People are scared because it's essentially just a whisper campaign - Everyone has anecdotal evidence with no real evidence to back it up. Cologne has brought the issue of cultural clashes resulting in crime to the fore. By refusing to really address the issue and prove one way or the other, it's just intensifying fear and distrust. Especially given the cover-up that happened.

    The government should just tell us the truth and let the chips fall where they may; Right now, we're ripe for idiots to lead the way by either ignoring the problem or making it out to be worse than it is. That's far worse than anything else simply because we cannot make informed decisions about appropriate responses.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    When loads disagree with their views for whatever reason, a lot of small-minded people put it down to the media being against whatever their view is because they can't fathom that anybody other than brainwashed idiots could possibly disagree with them about anything. They're that arrogant. They come up with this conspiracy theory and it's really quite pathetic. Paranoid extremists on both sides of the political spectrum are often guilty of this. You're doing it.
    I get that but you have to account for the cognitive bias whether it is media driven or not. And people like you don't seem to and think that what you think in your brain is absolute. Being open to the fallacious aspect of your own world view is vital in progressive thought.
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    (Original post by Free Kurdistan)
    Honestly, I disagree, it's not stand out amazing like the south Asian Sunni kids on this website like to circlejerk too, but I do find it really cool

    Persian is really beautiful and feminine, whereas Arabic is more masculine, I guess you could say based on the languages, it makes sense that the Arabs won the war with Persia, but the Persians created the intellectual golden age. Sort of like Greek culture vs Roman culture, the Persians being analagous to the Greeks
    i dont necessarily agree, but that is an interesting conceptualisation of the differences :lol:
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    First off, I live in Germany. I seem to be the only person actually residing in the country in question, so I'm hoping my assessment of the situation will be somewhat interesting to you all.

    Overall, it really depends on where you live in Germany. The most obvious (and terrifying) dichotomy is to be observed between the Eastern and Western German states. Particularly Saxony, especially as of last night, is dealing with some extremely violent right-extremist uprisings. Dresden has also been in the news due to neo-Nazi activity and the Pegida movement.
    Bavaria is another issue. Geographically an Eastern German state, they didn't belong to the DDR, so from what I have seen they aren't being as vocal about their displeasure at the influx of refugees, in a nationalistic sense, as Saxony for instance. Bavaria, however, shares a border with Austria and has therefore, voluntarily or involuntarily, taken in the highest number of asylum seekers. They have made it clear that Merkel has to change her policies and that the border must be regulated, but I haven't seen them torching hotels which were being converted into refugee housing, or gathering into a mob to boo an entire bus of refugees, as Saxony did last weekend.

    I live in Rhineland Palatinate, right next to France, and from what I have seen, the ethnic and cultural demographic change is mostly noticeable in small communities. We already have a large Turkish population, so women wearing scarves, for instance, don't really raise any more attention than they generally would.
    As I mentioned, though, the shift in small towns and villages is more noticeable. German towns generally aren't very ethnically diverse and suddenly seeing a bunch of people who don't speak German and maybe act a little different is often met with suspicion. I'd also say that the people who are most frightened by these new circumstances are the elderly and the uneducated, small-town bumpkins. Pardon my lapse in objectivity there, but it's true.

    Further, and as always depending on the city, you do see quite a few election signs from the NPD (basically Nazis), etc. sporting extreme anti-Islamic slogans. To clarify, whenever Germany is nearing elections, the NPD makes an appearance, but due to the current crisis, the messages spouted off by them and other, similarly inclined parties, are particularly cutting.

    All in all, I'd say Germany is dealing fine, excluding some isolated instances. However, I firmly believe that incoming refugees and a portion of the already here resident ones must be taken in by other, less actively engaged countries. That doesn't only apply to the EU.

    Now on to the specific replies:


    (Original post by Robert M-B)
    In the news there are lots of negative opinions regarding the actions of refugees in Germany. Such news instances include 100 sexual assaults on New Year's Eve, refugee males being banned from swimming pool following: rapes, assaults and inappropriate behavior and other general negative press.

    So my question is (to people who live in Germany and can speak from personal experience) how much truth is in these articles? Are they regular occurrences? How is Germany coping? And What are the general attitudes towards refugees?

    Thanks
    Some of what you wanted to know is answered above, but concerning personal safety issues, particularly for women, I do believe that Germans are quite suspicious when it comes to male refugees. I personally have not experienced anything myself to that degree, but the incidents in Cologne and Berlin have been fodder for many a political debate on tv. There are some initiatives, run by Muslim men who have integrated into German (Western society), aimed at educating male refugees. Naturally, the process of changing these individuals' traditional values and beliefs will take time. I'm guessing years, if not entire generations.

    (Original post by MrDystopia)
    With several friends dotted round the country, they've all been unanimous in saying not a lot has changed. Day to day life is no different, even in Colonge where perhaps the only thing different is people are slightly more cautious walking around at night alone (Though my friends agreed that that's common sense to stay vigilante at night alone anyway).

    They don't necessarily approve of how Merkel is handling it, but the consensus is that the idea Germany is suddenly burning down and on the brink of destruction is complete rubbish.
    I'd have to agree with you on this. Nationwide, I'd say that life is as it always has been. Regionally, it may have changed drastically.

    (Original post by Doug Stamper)
    It's mostly right-wing media exaggeration, Germany has taken very few immigrants compared to Turkey. And sexual assaults aren't any more probable among immigrants than the natives.
    In my opinion comparing the number of refugees taken in by Germany to the number taken in by Turkey, and thereby negating any cultural crisis which may arise/be taking place in Germany, is very daring.
    I am no specialist in the field, but even the sole fact that Turkey is largely Muslim will make the cultural integration of Syrians, etc. easier. It's true that in comparison to Turkey, Jordan and other nations bordering Syria, Germany isn't leading the polls. Looking at Europe, however, Germany is at the top. I realize that Sweden, compared to their population, is the real front-runner, but due to the actual number of refugees, Germany has taken in the most.
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    (Original post by mjones96)
    First off, I live in Germany. I seem to be the only person actually residing in the country in question, so I'm hoping my assessment of the situation will be somewhat interesting to you all.

    Overall, it really depends on where you live in Germany. The most obvious (and terrifying) dichotomy is to be observed between the Eastern and Western German states. Particularly Saxony, especially as of last night, is dealing with some extremely violent right-extremist uprisings. Dresden has also been in the news due to neo-Nazi activity and the Pegida movement.
    Bavaria is another issue. Geographically an Eastern German state, they didn't belong to the DDR, so from what I have seen they aren't being as vocal about their displeasure at the influx of refugees, in a nationalistic sense, as Saxony for instance. Bavaria, however, shares a border with Austria and has therefore, voluntarily or involuntarily, taken in the highest number of asylum seekers. They have made it clear that Merkel has to change her policies and that the border must be regulated, but I haven't seen them torching hotels which were being converted into refugee housing, or gathering into a mob to boo an entire bus of refugees, as Saxony did last weekend.

    I live in Rhineland Palatinate, right next to France, and from what I have seen, the ethnic and cultural demographic change is mostly noticeable in small communities. We already have a large Turkish population, so women wearing scarves, for instance, don't really raise any more attention than they generally would.
    As I mentioned, though, the shift in small towns and villages is more noticeable. German towns generally aren't very ethnically diverse and suddenly seeing a bunch of people who don't speak German and maybe act a little different is often met with suspicion. I'd also say that the people who are most frightened by these new circumstances are the elderly and the uneducated, small-town bumpkins. Pardon my lapse in objectivity there, but it's true.

    Further, and as always depending on the city, you do see quite a few election signs from the NPD (basically Nazis), etc. sporting extreme anti-Islamic slogans. To clarify, whenever Germany is nearing elections, the NPD makes an appearance, but due to the current crisis, the messages spouted off by them and other, similarly inclined parties, are particularly cutting.

    All in all, I'd say Germany is dealing fine, excluding some isolated instances. However, I firmly believe that incoming refugees and a portion of the already here resident ones must be taken in by other, less actively engaged countries. That doesn't only apply to the EU.

    Now on to the specific replies:




    Some of what you wanted to know is answered above, but concerning personal safety issues, particularly for women, I do believe that Germans are quite suspicious when it comes to male refugees. I personally have not experienced anything myself to that degree, but the incidents in Cologne and Berlin have been fodder for many a political debate on tv. There are some initiatives, run by Muslim men who have integrated into German (Western society), aimed at educating male refugees. Naturally, the process of changing these individuals' traditional values and beliefs will take time. I'm guessing years, if not entire generations.



    I'd have to agree with you on this. Nationwide, I'd say that life is as it always has been. Regionally, it may have changed drastically.



    In my opinion comparing the number of refugees taken in by Germany to the number taken in by Turkey, and thereby negating any cultural crisis which may arise/be taking place in Germany, is very daring.
    I am no specialist in the field, but even the sole fact that Turkey is largely Muslim will make the cultural integration of Syrians, etc. easier. It's true that in comparison to Turkey, Jordan and other nations bordering Syria, Germany isn't leading the polls. Looking at Europe, however, Germany is at the top. I realize that Sweden, compared to their population, is the real front-runner, but due to the actual number of refugees, Germany has taken in the most.
    how many refuges has the US received?
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    how many refuges has the US received?
    Is that an actual question or a challenge? If it's the latter I'd prefer not to get into a debate about America's stance on Syrian refugees, or any incoming "Alien" individuals. I'm half American and have at best a "cynical" relationship with my better half.
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    (Original post by mjones96)
    Is that an actual question or a challenge? If it's the latter I'd prefer not to get into a debate about America's stance on Syrian refugees, or any incoming "Alien" individuals. I'm half American and have at best a "cynical" relationship with my better half.
    it is an actual question ...
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    (Original post by Ethereal World)
    I get that but you have to account for the cognitive bias whether it is media driven or not. And people like you don't seem to and think that what you think in your brain is absolute. Being open to the fallacious aspect of your own world view is vital in progressive thought.
    With respect. It was not open-minded of you to dismiss the other person's thoughts as being weak-mined.

    It is those kind of personal attacks on people who feel differently to mainstream thought that drive them into the hands of extremism. Be it far right or far left and it plays RIGHT into the hands of those extremist parties desperate for members and funding which gives them a sense of legitimacy.

    What terrifies me most about this future is that with the increasing popularity of labelling and dismissing peoples views we will end up polarising public opinion until it breaks out into open conflict. That is the worst case scenario.

    Obviously you're not the only one and what you did was relatively minor, but all of this negative bias towards those with an unfavourable or alternative view can build up in somebody's mind until they are no longer willing to rationalise their debate and instead resort to violence.

    All of us here have a responsibility to entertain differeing opinions, therefore preserving freedom of speech whilst ensuring that those who feel they have the right to offend are challenged.

    Best regards to you and have a good evening .
    From Francis.
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    it is an actual question ...
    Then I apologize for my unwarranted defensiveness. TSR, like any forum, can just turn rather ugly, too quickly. Hope you understand.

    Anyway, to the question. As I said, I am not an expert on the subject, but the last I heard the U.S. has officially taken in ca. 3000 Syrian refugees. Pitiful, truly, but the individual states are the problem, as many of them are refusing to take in any asylum seekers.There has also reportedly been a preference for Christian refugees, which isn't surprising as it seems like all Republicans and Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh supporters believe that "Muslim" immediately equals "Terrorist". Admittedly and unfortunately many people across the globe share this opinion.
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    (Original post by mjones96)
    Then I apologize for my unwarranted defensiveness. TSR, like any forum, can just turn rather ugly, too quickly. Hope you understand.

    Anyway, to the question. As I said, I am not an expert on the subject, but the last I heard the U.S. has officially taken in ca. 3000 Syrian refugees. Pitiful, truly, but the individual states are the problem, as many of them are refusing to take in any asylum seekers.There has also reportedly been a preference for Christian refugees, which isn't surprising as it seems like all Republicans and Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh supporters believe that "Muslim" immediately equals "Terrorist". Admittedly and unfortunately many people across the globe share this opinion.
    that is really the point I wanted to make ...
    the US can travel vast distances with aircraft carriers destabilize regions and then they leave without any further obligations
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    When loads disagree with their views for whatever reason, a lot of small-minded people put it down to the media being against whatever their view is because they can't fathom that anybody other than brainwashed idiots could possibly disagree with them about anything. They're that arrogant. They come up with this conspiracy theory and it's really quite pathetic. Paranoid extremists on both sides of the political spectrum are often guilty of this. You're doing it.
    You can test it to a degree. Studies done on attitudes to welfare were done in America. If the question explain the state welfare system without using those two words majority of people are for it. But if you just ask "do you agree with welfare" people are strongly against it. The word "welfare" brings up a strong negative response compared to the positive response when you describe the same thing but don't use that word. So that's the evidence. You can then try and draw conclusion from that or show why you may or may not think the methods and stats gathered are good or not.

    One conclusion we can make is that the word "welfare" has been made to equate with the idea of a black single mum (racism and america) choosing not to work and driving an expensive car and living a better life than you who is working. You can then go find examples of the welfare system being portrayed in this way by media outlets etc and then go look at data on what life is like for physical welfare recipients that actually exist. If the two don;t meet up you can conclude that people who hate welfare are hating a fictional version of the system that does not match up to reality, this has been put in their heads by narratives in the media.

    That's sociology, not conspiracy theories. You are free to philosophise why they are wrong or gather your own data to support your views. Or you can wallow in arrogant ignorance and mindlessly dismiss it as nit goes against your own bias and view of the world. Or dismiss the entire field of sociology as being a left wing scheme and celebrate the right's supposed rejection of the idea of scientific enquiry (I don;t agree with that but's it;s the position a few right wing people basically take when they discredit academia for being "left wing" so we can just ignore it) .

    Do you think Marx was a conspiracy theorist? Do you think Einstein was a conspiracy theorist? Is any philosopher/economist/sociologist/thinker you don't like or agree with a conspiracy theorist?

    The manufacturing consent model for western societies, mainly america, won an award recently for "the fight against stupidity" from Philosophy Now. Is that publication a peddler of conspiracy theories?

    https://philosophynow.org/issues/107...onal_Stupidity
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    (Original post by Francis Urquhart)
    With respect. It was not open-minded of you to dismiss the other person's thoughts as being weak-mined.

    It is those kind of personal attacks on people who feel differently to mainstream thought that drive them into the hands of extremism. Be it far right or far left and it plays RIGHT into the hands of those extremist parties desperate for members and funding which gives them a sense of legitimacy.

    What terrifies me most about this future is that with the increasing popularity of labelling and dismissing peoples views we will end up polarising public opinion until it breaks out into open conflict. That is the worst case scenario.

    Obviously you're not the only one and what you did was relatively minor, but all of this negative bias towards those with an unfavourable or alternative view can build up in somebody's mind until they are no longer willing to rationalise their debate and instead resort to violence.

    All of us here have a responsibility to entertain differeing opinions, therefore preserving freedom of speech whilst ensuring that those who feel they have the right to offend are challenged.

    Best regards to you and have a good evening .
    From Francis.
    I didn't disrespect his opinion I just encouraged him to consider why he thinks like that. I account for my own cognitive bias and I don't hate on people who disagree with me if they have good reason.
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    that is really the point I wanted to make ...
    the US can travel vast distances with aircraft carriers destabilize regions and then they leave without any further obligations
    The Americans didn't destabilize Syria. Perhaps if Assad hadn't been a bloodthirsty dictator, we wouldn't have such a mess in the area.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    The Americans didn't destabilize Syria. Perhaps if Assad hadn't been a bloodthirsty dictator, we wouldn't have such a mess in the area.
    I beg to differ ... The US and some Europeans countries armed the initial rebel forces in order to depose Assad.
    Also the refugees are from North Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as from other countries which claim to be Syrians in order to move to the West
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    I beg to differ ... The US and some Europeans countries armed the initial rebel forces in order to depose Assad.
    Also the refugees are from North Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as from other countries which claim to be Syrians in order to move to the West
    At the beginning, there were peaceful demonstrations.

    He gunned the crowds.

    A part of his army defected. The Kurds revolted.

    The civil war started. Only at that moment the USA started to give *some* weapons to the rebels; nothing serious compared to the massive help provided by Russia to Assad. Whether the US had given weapons or not wouldn't have changed anything.

    Then Islamists from Iraq arrived.
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    Depends from where you are. Every German would have an issue with it, if a massive refugee camp would have been build next to his house, not only east-germans. But the camps I know are all build in east-germany, where people clearly say if they don't like it. If it is about some of them being Right-wing or not, I am not sure !

    I am from Hessen, which is a pretty multicultural-county anyway. So we don't care too much about new-foreigners.
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    (Original post by Callous Twits)
    arabic is such an ugly language.
    Arabic is such a beautiful language
 
 
 
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