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Why you should vote to LEAVE* the European Union watch

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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    1) I used to hear people saying that "half our exports go to the EU" - it's not half. it's less than half. 45% at the most. therefore, that's a "lie".
    2) "we'll lose jobs if we leave the EU" - if we have more prosperous trade, how on earth can that be true? the jobs we'll lose will either be jobs that never deserved to exist (e.g. the ones that ould be failing without uncompetitive EU subsidies - farming being a prime example all over the EU) or the ones that are the EU bureaucratic offices!
    3) "only 10% of our laws are made by the EU" - I've already answer that lie.
    4) "EU uncontrolled immigration is fine" - in what possible sense?
    5) "the EU parliament is democratic" - fat lie. already explained how.
    6) "we need the EU for power" - we are one of the most powerful countries in the whole world. the EU is like a ball and chain around us if they make us *share* that power. they're even wanting us to give up our UNSC seats too, along with france.
    1. 45% is approximately half. That said, I've never seen anyone say that. I've only ever said 45%. 45% of our exports is a HUGE number.

    2. But we wouldn't have more prosperous trade. 15% of our GDP comes from EU exports, and 45% of our exports are to the EU. Those numbers would decrease.

    As for your other points, I'm not going to comment because I haven't looked into them. I don't think democracy is a big issue. EU legislation has been hugely beneficial (and highly progressive) to us, and to reject it purely on principle is silly, in my opinion. If the EU was taking advantage or imposing laws that were harmful then I'd feel differently, but that's not the case.
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    in the OP I said "the 2nd most densely populated WESTERN nation" - I thought you had seen that. but either way, excuse the fact that I had forgotten to insert that word.and regarding that 45%, it is an indication that the EU needs us more than we need them. if it was over 50% I'd be saying something different, though. what are resources without a market?
    I have no doubt that the EU would also suffer economically if we were to leave, but the fact that 45% of our exports go to them means that we absolutely do need them, and leaving would damage our economy.
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    #BetterTogether2016
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    1. 45% is approximately half. That said, I've never seen anyone say that. I've only ever said 45%. 45% of our exports is a HUGE number.
    it's either half, over half or under half. it's UNDER. you're being very economical with your language, or rather "desperate". be clear and factual. I could say "the scots voted to leave the UK by half" but am I being correct? theses things matter

    2. But we wouldn't have more prosperous trade. 15% of our GDP comes from EU exports, and 45% of our exports are to the EU. Those numbers would decrease.
    got proof? are you talking about short term or long term? which one and why?

    As for your other points, I'm not going to comment because I haven't looked into them. I don't think democracy is a big issue.
    but I do.

    EU legislation has been hugely beneficial (and highly progressive) to us, and to reject it purely on principle is silly, in my opinion. If the EU was taking advantage or imposing laws that were harmful then I'd feel differently, but that's not the case.
    luckily I have both principle *and* practicalities on my side then.and if the EU wasn't taking advantage of us, how come they enclose us into trade deals which impose illiberal and tariffed trade deals with poor or undeserving (of that) countries? we lose money from doing stupid things like this. no wonder the EU is the only declining world trading bloc in the world. we have some of the most wealthy countries in the world and we *still* do terribly, relatively speaking. don't know how you justify it!

    I have no doubt that the EU would also suffer economically if we were to leave, but the fact that 45% of our exports go to them means that we absolutely do need them, and leaving would damage our economy.
    ...you haven't developed that point?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    2. But we wouldn't have more prosperous trade. 15% of our GDP comes from EU exports, and 45% of our exports are to the EU. Those numbers would decrease.
    Why would they? How do you know?

    This isn't a dig, it's a genuine question. I see people say this often but it's never backed up.

    The products aren't suddenly going to become more expensive.
    It's not going to be harder to transport them.
    The countries aren't going to be moving physically further apart.
    The goods will still be for sale.
    So why will our exports automatically decrease? Other non-EU countries manage to trade with the EU, don't they?
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    (Original post by Jamie S)
    #BetterTogether2016
    better together? better together within an imposing political union masquerading as a mere trade bloc, which, as an element, is stagnating?
    #masochism
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    which is why I mention factors like employment (more EU immigrants = more local unemployment), housing space (more EU immigrants = less housing space), school and hospital spaces, etc - I wasn't talking about the EU. I could tell you that getting rid of the welfare state, or the minimum wage (etc) would be technically good for the economy regarding simple GDP mathematics (like you are for immigration) but nobody's use *that* logic there like they are here.

    and oh wow, quoting the guardian to prove a guardian-esque view.
    What is the problem with it? Competition creates efficiency, if local people cannot compete, that is entirely their problem.
    As to the strain on economy's resources, considering that EU migrants contribute to our economy the strain would be justified, as the additional money taxed could be spent on building more houses, better health and education. We need to stop immigration from outside the EU, not from within it, and leaving EU would only deprive our economy of money that could have been gained whilst still spending enormous amounts in welfare etc. in favour of non-eu migrants.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    better together? better together within an imposing political union masquerading as a mere trade bloc, which, as an element, is stagnating?
    #masochism
    #NotThatDeepofaPost
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    (Original post by 0123456543210)
    What is the problem with it? Competition creates efficiency, if local people cannot compete, that is entirely their problem.
    As to the strain on economy's resources, considering that EU migrants contribute to our economy the strain would be justified, as the additional money taxed could be spent on building more houses, better health and education. We need to stop immigration from outside the EU, not from within it, and leaving EU would only deprive our economy of money that could have been gained whilst still spending enormous amounts in welfare etc. in favour of non-eu migrants.
    there are so many ways of producing efficiency WITHOUT generating unemployment though (or other things, e.g. a lack of living space, school places etc - we could cut regulations (e.g. after leaving the EU), we could cut taxation/spending, we could lower the minimum wage (whether you like it or not, it would create "efficiency" like you were saying).
    and I never even claimed that migrants DON'T contribute to our economy. they're usually of working age and therefore pay into the tax system more than they take out, just like all other (british) working age individuals. and who said we need to stop immigration from the outside? we need to CONTROL* immigration from all countries. the EU should NOT get a free pass.
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    (Original post by Jamie S)
    #NotThatDeepofaPost
    look who's talking
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    look who's talking
    Huh?
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    I don't understand your optimism with the conservatives seeing as they've had 6 years to sort out immigration and have either failed or made things worse...not to be implying that labour/lib dems are better - they're still worse.
    NO NO NO sorry didn't mean that i am pro UKIP and labour. With the conservative government in charge we don't normally have much in the say of things so when we have an opportunity comes around we should grasp it and change things around.
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    (Original post by Jamie S)
    Huh?
    how was your "#BetterTogether2016" statement "deep"?
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    how was your "#BetterTogether2016" statement "deep"?
    It wasn't
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    I was referring to my own post not being that deep, hence not worthy of your in depth reply
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    (Original post by Jamie S)
    It wasn't
    okay
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    Ok i am currently undecided as to how to vote, currently more lenient towards a stay in vote but I'm not sure. I've read a lot on this thread about the claimed benefits to the UK with leaving the EU. I am curious to know more about the the social, political, economical and environmental risks to the UK? Scotland (or atleast its government in Holyrood) doesnt want to leave the EU, and they threaten to leave. So could we effectively risk the nation breaking apart on two fronts: the EU and Scotland? That doesn't sound good.
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    (Original post by speed1✈️✈️)
    Ok i am currently undecided as to how to vote, currently more lenient towards a stay in vote but I'm not sure. I've read a lot on this thread about the claimed benefits to the UK with leaving the EU. I am curious to know more about the the social, political, economical and environmental risks to the UK? Scotland (or atleast its government in Holyrood) doesnt want to leave the EU, and they threaten to leave. So could we effectively risk the nation breaking apart on two fronts: the EU and Scotland? That doesn't sound good.
    1) I just want to open this by saying that you're clearly clutching at straws
    2) the scots will never leave the UK for the sake of the EU - why would they? if it's an argument of benefits, they will lose more by leaving the UK.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    ...you haven't developed that point?
    (Original post by Drewski)
    Why would they? How do you know?

    This isn't a dig, it's a genuine question. I see people say this often but it's never backed up.

    The products aren't suddenly going to become more expensive.
    It's not going to be harder to transport them.
    The countries aren't going to be moving physically further apart.
    The goods will still be for sale.
    So why will our exports automatically decrease? Other non-EU countries manage to trade with the EU, don't they?
    The products are going to become more expensive.

    The EU incentivises trade within the EU by applying tariffs on trade with non-EU nations. So for example, if you're a French company looking to get something manufactured, it'll probably be cheaper to get it from China. However, the EU applies a tariff when you're buying from China. When you add that tariff onto the cost of buying from China, it becomes cheaper to buy from the UK.

    If we leave the EU, then EU countries will need to pay similar tariffs to trade with us. So in a lot of cases it would become favourable to buy elsewhere.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The products are going to become more expensive.

    The EU incentivises trade within the EU by applying tariffs on trade with non-EU nations. So for example, if you're a French company looking to get something manufactured, it'll probably be cheaper to get it from China. However, the EU applies a tariff when you're buying from China. When you add that tariff onto the cost of buying from China, it becomes cheaper to buy from the UK.

    If we leave the EU, then EU countries will need to pay similar tariffs to trade with us. So in a lot of cases it would become favourable to buy elsewhere.
    do you think protectionism is an application of good economics for *any* country?
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    So immigration seems to be the biggest argument most of the time, so my question is: how is leaving EU will prevent/help to deal with immigration if the most immigrants to the UK come from non-EU countries (and that is (supposed to be)controlled now either way).

    It's not a dig, I just want to hear substantial arguments.
 
 
 
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