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Motion of No Confidence in HM Government Watch

  • View Poll Results: Should this Vote of No Confidence pass?
    As many are of the opinion, Aye
    23
    46.00%
    On the contrary, No
    25
    50.00%
    Abstain
    2
    4.00%

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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    If we lose by one vote....xD
    Then you'll kick yourself for not having found a proxy
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    I'm actually tempted to now
    I've had no communication with my party so I feel like I should wait
    I've voted nay; I don't feel the other members of the party are taking a sufficiently active interest in the current state of affairs to defer to them. Essentially, I'm comfortable with the government's level of activity, I don't feel MoNCs every term are constructive, and in any event, in the event of this passing I feel the most likely result is a ConKip government which is like a worst case scenario (sorry Neb).

    Regarding authoritarianism, I don't think outside of the context of a single community one can trust people to act in an equitable manner; accordingly, we should not allow them to act for themselves. That is the basis of my authoritarianism.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I've voted nay; I don't feel the other members of the party are taking a sufficiently active interest in the current state of affairs to defer to them. Essentially, I'm comfortable with the government's level of activity, I don't feel MoNCs every term are constructive, and in any event, in the event of this passing I feel the most likely result is a ConKip government which is like a worst case scenario (sorry Neb).

    Regarding authoritarianism, I don't think outside of the context of a single community one can trust people to act in an equitable manner; accordingly, we should not allow them to act for themselves. That is the basis of my authoritarianism.
    But people don't like being told what to do beyond a certain level, so authoritarianism in the context of a socialist government would eventually lead to resentment of socialist ideals among the population, leading to non-socialist forces gaining power by democratic or other means, leading to a less equal society.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    But people don't like being told what to do beyond a certain level, so authoritarianism in the context of a socialist government would eventually lead to resentment of socialist ideals among the population, leading to non-socialist forces gaining power by democratic or other means, leading to a less equal society.
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Regarding authoritarianism, I don't think outside of the context of a single community one can trust people to act in an equitable manner; accordingly, we should not allow them to act for themselves. That is the basis of my authoritarianism.
    Again, I must quote Lenin:
    "Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing."

    Direct democracy, people - also known as soviet power.
    "In the course of two years Soviet power in one of the most backward countries of Europe did more to emancipate women and to make their status equal to that of the “strong” sex than all the advanced, enlightened, “democratic” republics of the world did in the course of 130 years!"
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Again, I must quote Lenin:
    "Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing."

    Direct democracy, people - also known as soviet power.
    "In the course of two years Soviet power in one of the most backward countries of Europe did more to emancipate women and to make their status equal to that of the “strong” sex than all the advanced, enlightened, “democratic” republics of the world did in the course of 130 years!"
    prsom
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Again I must quote Lenin "Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing."
    That is very idealist, ignoring a critique of the conversion from capitalism to socialism which is there will have to be a group of people organising the transition to a socialist society, whose human instinct will take over, creating a smaller group of elite rules; it is the Animal Farm all over again.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    That is very idealist, ignoring a critique of the conversion from capitalism to socialism which is there will have to be a group of people organising the transition to a socialist society, whose human instinct will take over, creating a smaller group of elite rules; it is the Animal Farm all over again.
    Which is why said transition is best done democratically.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    That is very idealist, ignoring a critique of the conversion from capitalism to socialism which is there will have to be a group of people organising the transition to a socialist society, whose human instinct will take over, creating a smaller group of elite rules; it is the Animal Farm all over again.
    Read "The Transitional Programme" by Leon Trotsky - it's very enlightening.

    If you'll note, George Orwell was actually a democratic socialist - Animal Farm as well as 1984 critiqued Stalinism - authoritarian "socialism".
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Which is why said transition is best done democratically,
    True dat.
    PRSOM
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Which is why said transition is best done democratically,
    Democracy can be tried but if people do not want socialism a democratic transition will fail, and if people do not respect the results of the democratic election a socialist transition will fail. This ignores the potential of Animal Farm happening with a democratic transition, the animals could have voted for the pigs to lead the farm, but if the pigs controlled information their removal from office would not happen because animals would believe the pigs were doing a good job. DMcGovern the political stance of George Orwell is not relevant, the transition to socialism has not been detailed by socialists of any kind.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Democracy can be tried but if people do not want socialism a democratic transition will fail, and if people do not respect the results of the democratic election a socialist transition will fail. This ignores the potential of Animal Farm happening with a democratic transition, the animals could have voted for the pigs to lead the farm, but if the pigs controlled information their removal from office would not happen because animals would believe the pigs were doing a good job. DMcGovern the political stance of George Orwell is not relevant, the transition to socialism has not been detailed by socialists of any kind.
    Either way, democracy is the point of socialism - greater direct democracy and democratic public ownership.

    Again - the Transitional Programme by Leon Trotsky.

    The working class is not acquainted with the necessity of embracing the revolutionary ideas of the Fourth International due to "the confusion and disappointment of the older generation, the inexperience of the younger generation".

    The old "minimum" demands had been raised by reformists on the understanding that they were acceptable to an expanding capitalism, and had been dropped when they were not.
    The Fourth International, Trotsky writes, does not discard the program of the old “minimal” demands "to the degree to which these have preserved at least part of their vital forcefulness." Trotskyists should indefatigably defend "the democratic rights and social conquests of the workers".

    But in addition, transitional demands include the call for "employment and decent living conditions for all" and reach beyond what the capitalists will willingly give, challenging the "very basis of the bourgeois regime."
    Demands such as higher wages are not impossible demands in themselves, but capitalism in crisis demands lower wages in the hope of increasing profitability.

    By fighting for these "transitional" demands, the workers will come to realize that capitalism cannot meet their needs, and they will then embrace the full program of the Fourth International.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Then you'll kick yourself for not having found a proxy
    Fair point. I'll go get us a proxy
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    Maybe an admendment could be made where the speaker, as a member of the mp group, could vote upon return as dictated by the deputy speaker to avoid the deputy speaker voting, this would remove all the faff of getting a proxy for just a vote or two here or there
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Maybe an admendment could be made where the speaker, as a member of the mp group, could vote upon return as dictated by the deputy speaker to avoid the deputy speaker voting, this would remove all the faff of getting a proxy for just a vote or two here or there
    At which point we may as well just have theDS vote, same with a proxy if they do things as they're supposed to

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    At which point we may as well just have theDS vote, same with a proxy if they do things as they're supposed to

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    It is a bit of a faff with having the DS also belonging to a political party and being allowed to be an MP, might just write an amendment allowing toronto to vote despite putting the bills and such up instead
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    It is a bit of a faff with having the DS also belonging to a political party and being allowed to be an MP, might just write an amendment allowing toronto to vote despite putting the bills and such up instead
    Is there anything that declares he cannot or does he merely choose not to? If the latter there is no issue.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Is there anything that declares he cannot or does he merely choose not to? If the latter there is no issue.

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    A good point, I'll take a read of the constitution and GD tomorrow while sober to see
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Follow your heart to the purple and red revolution!

    We could fly this modified anarchist flag outside No10.

    Attachment 506161
    That looks like an infant made it, suddenly it all makes sense as to why you lot keep spitting your dummies out and calling a VoNC

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    An ineffective Government. Its an aye from me.
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    Authoritarianism doesn't necessarily breed resentment; the majority of the time there is no difference between an authoritarian and a libertarian society, because in many situations people are well-placed to make decisions. Where there is a difference, people will rapidly learn that it is where the state knows better, and appreciate being able to defer to the state's authority on those points.
 
 
 
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