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S13 - Statement of Intent from the Department for Business, Innovation etc. Watch

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    Is there a planned minimum age, and will teachers in London receive a higher salary?
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    The relevant bit of the Budget:

    Teacher salary costs - £229.5m.

    Building buying costs - £110m.

    Learning resources budget -£765m.

    Each college will have a grant of £5m to cover materials needed for course teaching, which should be more than enough to ensure each college is well stocked.

    IT budget - £76.5m - each college will have a £1m budget for IT resources. The reason this is so high is that it includes the costs related to buying computers for IT-related courses.

    Maintenance budget - £306m. Enough for £2m per college, enough for basically anything to go wrong given these will be pretty big buildings.
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    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    The relevant bit of the Budget:
    I find it funny how the maintenance costs on a new building is triple the cost to actually build it, and a materials cost 5 times the construction cost that straight up shows how rediculous the costing is. Also, does the SoS (ik it's not you) believe that in average there will be two teachers per subject per school?

    I believe it was asked in the budget debate, but how many people does the government imagine will be enrolled at any given time?

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    Costing aside, there are 2 obvious problems with this statement of intent.

    1. The listed subjects are either already taught in hundreds of universities (English, History, Mathetmatics) or more suited to apprenticeships and practical experience than courses (painting, building and plumbing). What is the point of these colleges?

    2. A mere degree is enough to become a teacher on 32K? A 20 year old business graduate can stroll into one of these highly paid jobs without any experience, to regurgitate what he has been taught? What a nonsense.
    .
    It's not at all clear what this statement intends to do. At a time when we have a surplus of graduates with often useless qualifications, the answer is certainly not to introduce yet another worthless qualification to be substituted for actual experience.

    An emphatic nay. What an egregious statement of intent. Was it intended as an April fool's day joke to satirise the abundance of worthless courses which are offered?
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    Costing aside, there are 2 obvious problems with this statement of intent.

    1. The listed subjects are either already taught in hundreds of universities (English, History, Mathetmatics) or more suited to apprenticeships and practical experience than courses (painting, building and plumbing). What is the point of these colleges?

    2. A mere degree is enough to become a teacher on 32K? A 20 year old business graduate can stroll into one of these highly paid jobs without any experience, to regurgitate what he has been taught? What a nonsense.
    .
    It's not at all clear what this statement intends to do. At a time when we have a surplus of graduates with often useless qualifications, the answer is certainly not to introduce yet another worthless qualification to be substituted for actual experience.

    An emphatic nay. What an egregious statement of intent. Was it intended as an April fool's day joke to satirise the abundance of worthless courses which are offered?
    Hear, hear!
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    (Original post by Andy98)
    Scrap the IT course - anyone can pass that with flying colours, stick computer science instead.

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    Again another case of the government falling to do any research and poorly costed .

    For a start that is a measly amount to build all the NES Colleges you want to build considering mosts colleges costs millions to build

    Nay !
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Hear, hear!
    I thought you didn't like that phrase...
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    (Original post by Andy98)
    Scrap the IT course - anyone can pass that with flying colours, stick computer science instead.

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    You would be surprised quite how many old people there are whose job opportunities are limited due to a lack of IT skills.
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    I thought you didn't like that phrase...
    No, I do, but not the way you used it which is to apply it to an objective fact rather than an argument.

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    Would the government like me to fix their costing here too?

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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    You would be surprised quite how many old people there are whose job opportunities are limited due to a lack of IT skills.
    Computer science allows for broad IT skills but with a far greater emphasis on understanding the framework under which IT operates, allowing for far more uses once taught.
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    You would be surprised quite how many old people there are whose job opportunities are limited due to a lack of IT skills.
    An IT course doesn't teach much, a computer science course teaches you proper IT skills. Plus I was under the impression this was for young people

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    I was thinking about this earlier and how to cost it properly, but it dawned on me that it lacks so much detail and we know so little that there are only two things we can get for how it should be costed, even using the abnormal methods given here, and they are that it is costed wrong and we can get a minimum wage bill.

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    Nay. Many courses are available already in existing colleges and universities. Perhaps we should encourage more people to use them, but that's not what this SoI is calling for. This is a total waste of money that under-costs the amount that will need to be spent on buildings, is vague in detail and lets any graduate become a teacher.
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    With 24 hours having passed, I would like the Sos to clarify a few things so that I can actually do my job as the unofficial civil service and get this costed correctly. Are the facilities to be built, as the statement states, or is the intention to use existing facilities as the Prime Minister suggests? What sort of enrollment are we talking about, how many people are expected to need to the buildings at any given time, I would assume there need to be enough classes for most subjects to be able to be taught simultaneously.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    S13 - Statement of Intent from the Department for Business, Innovation and Lifelong Learning
    Department for Business, Innovation and Lifelong Learning
    Secretary of State: The Rt Hon. cranbrook_aspie MP

    This Government believes that in order to keep Britain relevant today's fast-moving world, having a flexible workforce which has as many skills as possible at its fingertips is vital, and that current provision for further education for adults is both woefully inadequate and in desperate need of standardisation. Therefore, it proposes to establish a National Education Service to make it easy for adults wanting to switch careers, progress in their current career or simply to broaden their skillset to gain the necessary skills and knowledge.

    Colleges
    133 National Education Service Colleges will be established. There will initially be one per English ceremonial county, Welsh preserved county, Scottish council area and Northern Irish county; excepting Greater London, where there will be four; and the West Midlands, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, Hampshire, Kent, Essex, Dyfed and Powys; in each of which there shall be two. A Commission will be set up for the finding of suitable locations to site the colleges.

    A total budget of £110m shall be allocated for the purchase of land and buildings. National Education Service colleges will share existing further education college sites where possible, sharing as much of their existing workforces as possible.

    Courses and Teaching Arrangements
    A course taken at a National Education Service College will be known as a National Education Service Course. A National Education Service Course shall consist of 45 hour-long sessions. Colleges and, as far as is reasonably practical, individual course teachers, shall be at liberty to decide the timing of these sessions.

    The courses contained in this list below are the ones that colleges will be obliged to offer, they may offer up to 15 additional ones if they wish. A qualification known as a National Education Service Qualification, which shall be a Level 3 NQF qualification, will be gained on completion of the course. In order to gain a National Education Service Qualification, one will have to sit an exam in the course one is taking.

    There will be a minimum of 1 teacher employed at every college for every course offered. In order to be employed as a teacher at a National Education Service College, an applicant shall be required to have completed either a degree in a subject related to the course they are applying to teach, or to have a minimum of 20 years' experience working in a related field. The salary of a teacher shall be £32,000 per year for the duration of the 2016-7 financial year.

    List of Courses
    Architecture
    Painting
    Building/DIY
    Business skills and finance
    Cookery
    Carpenting and woodwork
    Clothesmaking
    Design
    English, literature and writing
    Electrics
    Plumbing
    Photography
    Mathematics
    Science (incorporating elements of physics, chemistry and biology).
    History
    Music
    Musical instruments(Basic instruments offered: Piano, guitar, cello, violin, trumpet, flute and clarinet. Colleges may offer additional instruments if they wish.)
    IT
    Languages (Basic languages offered: Mandarin Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, Hindi, Russian, Portuguese, Italian, French, Japanese and German. Colleges may offer additional languages if they wish.)
    Provisional costings can be found in the Budget Report.
    Lets have a look at some of the costs then

    The average school costs (1300 students) £25-30 million- to build 133 schools would cost you 3.325 Billion, thats just for the buildings
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    "The average cost of a new secondary school with 1,300 pupils and a sixth form in a high-cost inner-city area is £25-30m and some non-academy schools now under construction are costing up to £35m," he said."The average cost of an academy, of this size and location is similarly £25-30m."
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4952004.stm

    20 courses with at least 1 tutor per course would cost you £640,000 per school when you multiply that by the 133 schools/centres would cost £85,120,000

    Sharing sites how would that work- it would increase the operating costs of the existing sites through the use of staffing such as security, and utility bills and any cost to additional technology which may be used.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Poorly costed, you will only be able to build a few of those schools and then they will have budgets that are overly high, just as stated in the budget.
    We're not going to build except where we absolutely need to, we will use existing FE colleges as far as possible. I costed it as accurately as I could in my opinion so please point out with evidence where you think it's wrong and I'll respond.
    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I hate to say it, but nay. While I think Nigel Farage MEP is being sensationalistic with the 24x understatement, I feel that your costing for purchase/building lacks detail (if you say it's found within the budget, please at least copy the relevant material to your notes), and lacks realism: while in some areas, one may be able to gain suitable land and buildings for a little under £800k, most will fall at least somewhat over that figure, and I find it completely unrealistic to suggest one could found an institute of higher education in Greater London with the property costing under £1m (I suspect that £10m might be more realistic for the London properties). You can't fit a college which is mandated to provide 18 subjects (27 if you count the languages separately) and can provide up to 33 (42) in a building the size of a house, especially when some of those subjects (plumbing, building and carpentry in particular) will require very large spaces.Furthermore, I disagree with your list of subjects. The NES ought to be functional, rather than seeking to challenge the roles of traditional institutes of higher education: therefore, it should neither offer courses which are mostly done for pleasure, or offer courses which one could not realistically get a job in the relevant industry with what is ultimately going to be a technical, rather than an academic qualification. Therefore, I would remove architecture (too technical; architecture is a very competitive industry and generally, new architects have strong degrees from good universities), cookery, clothesmaking (there are very few jobs in the clothing industry which are UK-based), design (what do you mean by design? Product design? Graphic design? Fashion design?), photography, history, music, musical instruments, and condense business skills, English, maths, science, and IT into a 'core skills' course.Finally, I do not think it is feasible to teach most of these to a reasonable standard in 45 hours without accompanying apprenticeships etc.
    I couldn't find precise data on the internet as to the cost of the size of building that this would require, so I took house prices for each county and multiplied them by 10 then added that together and the numbers here are the result. It could well be wrong, but I am not a civil servant and I don't have access to the figures necessary to come up with more precise numbers.

    The NES isn't necessarily intended to challenge the roles of traditional higher education institutions, or to necessarily lead to the person getting a job - the idea is basically that it gives a skills boost that could be useful for a number of things, dependent on the course. For example, with the business skills and finance course, no, details about the inner workings of the stock market wouldn't be taught, but students would learn on a basic level how to manage money effectively and how to start up a small business - for the money management in particular, vital if you are an adult and you haven't got a clue about it. With the plumbing course, for example, again, the fundamentals of plumbing and how to fix non-complex problems would be taught, allowing more time to be spent when doing an apprenticeship with a plumber learning more complicated things - which would eventually lead to quicker career advancement. With the IT course, students would come out with a solid knowledge of how to use everything that you need in a digitally-orientated work environment - basic operating system navigation skills, emails, the internet, social media, word processors like Word etc. - which come as second nature to us as young people but which could be a serious career obstacle for a 50-year-old who hasn't got a clue about how they work. Yes, that could be combined with other things, but that would just lead to less being covered.

    I do see your point about how something like architecture could be removed, however. I must admit to having included a couple of things to fill up list space.


    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I find it funny how the maintenance costs on a new building is triple the cost to actually build it, and a materials cost 5 times the construction cost that straight up shows how rediculous the costing is. Also, does the SoS (ik it's not you) believe that in average there will be two teachers per subject per school?

    I believe it was asked in the budget debate, but how many people does the government imagine will be enrolled at any given time?

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    Yes I do, for most of the courses anyway.

    Around 1500, although it's hard to estimate given this sort of thing hasn't been tried irl.


    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Is there a planned minimum age, and will teachers in London receive a higher salary?
    Yes, 25, and yes, slightly.


    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    Costing aside, there are 2 obvious problems with this statement of intent.

    1. The listed subjects are either already taught in hundreds of universities (English, History, Mathetmatics) or more suited to apprenticeships and practical experience than courses (painting, building and plumbing). What is the point of these colleges?

    2. A mere degree is enough to become a teacher on 32K? A 20 year old business graduate can stroll into one of these highly paid jobs without any experience, to regurgitate what he has been taught? What a nonsense.
    .
    It's not at all clear what this statement intends to do. At a time when we have a surplus of graduates with often useless qualifications, the answer is certainly not to introduce yet another worthless qualification to be substituted for actual experience.

    An emphatic nay. What an egregious statement of intent. Was it intended as an April fool's day joke to satirise the abundance of worthless courses which are offered?
    To address your second point, as I think I addressed your first in my reply to TDA, applicants would not automatically be offered a job, they would have to have an interview, possibly two, first, to ensure that they had the level of skills and experience necessary to do the job and a 20-year-old business graduate would not get through that except in absolutely exceptional circumstances.


    (Original post by Andy98)
    An IT course doesn't teach much, a computer science course teaches you proper IT skills. Plus I was under the impression this was for young people

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    This is aimed at adults. I agree that computer science should be taught, but that's something for schools imo. Many older workers who haven't grown up with technology like we have still don't know how to use things as basic as Facebook - computer courses at institutions aimed at adults should cater for them more.
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    Let's go through this awful costing and fix it.

    Teacher salary costs - £229.5m.

    two teachers per subject per college, which is a dodgy assumption given some courses will be used more than others, this roughly checks out, slightly over stated. Although I would also suggest that the teachers are being seriously overpaid for the hours I get the impression they're doing
    Building buying costs - £110m.

    Using existing structures means this value should be 0

    Learning resources budget -£765m.

    Each college will have a grant of £5m to cover materials needed for course teaching, which should be more than enough to ensure each college is well stocked.

    This is simply absurd, the figures have been changed this year to try to balance out spending a bit given the massive discrepancies and the under funding of schools in some areas (not that I noticed it despite Cambridgeshire being the worst funded authority), but the average dedicated school grant in 2014-15 for secondary schools was about £4500 per pupil (now it will be something like £6k so we'll use that) means that a normally funded school would have a budget of about £9m, you are suggesting half of that goes into teaching materials, made even more absurd given the subject list is mostly low cost. To put things into perspective, if this were a normal school the vast majority of that £9m would be wages and admin, you are severely over funding the schools here.

    IT budget - £76.5m - each college will have a £1m budget for IT resources. The reason this is so high is that it includes the costs related to buying computers for IT-related courses.

    Yet another absurd proposal, the computers that will be used in schools are generally going to be maybe a couple of hundred quid off the shelf, probably cheaper still for a school, just how many computers are you wanting? On top of this, if using already existing facilities the IT resources will already be there, so again, this bit can be cut.

    Maintenance budget - £306m. Enough for £2m per college, enough for basically anything to go wrong given these will be pretty big buildings.

    Once again, we are running into the problem whereby you are costing for something that doesn't need costing for, and then severely overstating it even if you did need to cost for it. If you're using facilities that already exist then the maintenance should already be covered, but let's say we give it a small maintenance budget to cover its contribution. If we look at some resources from the Brighton and Hove City Council we see that the annual budget there FOR ALL THE SCHOOLS and not just one is not even half of this per school budget.

    The total cost should be less than £1bn and down to the schools how they use it, although given that students here will be no where near full time students it should be significantly less, I would say at most half a billion and that's pushing it.
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    I still maintain that it is a waste of money to provide services that are already being provide

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