Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mathstatician)
    Careful not to keep your eye on the future too much. This may be the most hypocritical ******** you'll hear on here but it's probably true. It's easy to get caught up in future optimisation and not take into account what you actually enjoy, working instead on what will yield the best thing later, but it's a perpetual cycle and always grasping at something you can never touch or taste, chasing a fantasy that will never come to fruition because you can't stop wanting more, bigger, better, harder, faster (,stronger?).

    What's your end goal anyway? Say you choose between sales and trading and IBD, you get through a gruelling two years in M&A, then get headhunted by a big PE firm. What then?

    I don't want to be giving life lessons because I'm just as much an overzealous, neurotic overachiever with no life and a sad obsession with my career before it's even really relevant but i feel like at this stage you're not exactly sure why you actually want to get into this besides reasons that don't make a lot of sense if you don't know what you want. But all the best to you
    Become a property millionaire and create a better life for my family and future family would be the ultimate goal
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Axlerod)
    Both appeal to me tbh, S&T has the better hours but M&A has the better exits sooooo 😁
    Do what interests you, do not base that decision off strategically. Omg
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Axlerod)
    Become a property millionaire and create a better life for my family and future family would be the ultimate goal
    RE IB --> RE PE, development, REITs etc..

    Read this: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum...ting-companies

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Princepieman)
    RE IB --> RE PE, development, REITs etc..

    Read this: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum...ting-companies

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Good link.

    Here's a slightly less serious one: http://wallstreetplayboys.com/best-r...-the-building/ :lol:
    But they do talk sense, at least.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Daniel9998)
    The hours difference isn't really that much and both areas have good exit opportunities. I would try maybe looking at the division that you actually find interesting???
    Yes hours and exit opportunities are factors to be taken into consideration but if you are already worried about the hours and basing which area you want to work in by exit opportunities when you haven't even finished GCSEs, you probably wouldn't last very long imo.
    the hours difference is quite significant, having worked in both areas

    trading = 7-6 (~11 hours)
    m&a = 9-2 (~16/17 hours)

    on average about a 25-30 hour difference each week (and that's not including weekends)

    so it's definitely something to consider if you want any sort of (out of work) social life in your early to mid-20s
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gr8wizard10)
    the hours difference is quite significant, having worked in both areas

    trading = 7-6 (~11 hours)
    m&a = 9-2 (~16/17 hours)

    on average about a 25-30 hour difference each week (and that's not including weekends)

    so it's definitely something to consider if you want any sort of (out of work) social life in your early to mid-20s
    Have you posted on how you you found working in each division? I'd be curious to read about it!
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gr8wizard10)
    the hours difference is quite significant, having worked in both areas

    trading = 7-6 (~11 hours)
    m&a = 9-2 (~16/17 hours)

    on average about a 25-30 hour difference each week (and that's not including weekends)

    so it's definitely something to consider if you want any sort of (out of work) social life in your early to mid-20s
    Oo didn't know the difference was that big.

    Which division are you going into now btw? Have you already secured a graduate position?
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Daniel9998)
    Oo didn't know the difference was that big.

    Which division are you going into now btw? Have you already secured a graduate position?
    IBD - didn't like the S&T lyfe, he's embraced models and bottles now

    He's interning (again) next summer.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Princepieman)
    didn't like the S&T lyfe
    What's not to like, in particular?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mathstatician)
    Have you posted on how you you found working in each division? I'd be curious to read about it!
    haven't made any detailed post, i could do that but the general highlights are

    macro trading:
    found it to require too much thinking (i.e considering how markets will react to everything). for instance i was on EM FX forwards desk, and had to continiously consider how supply/demand of currency would change dependent on political influence/ fluctations in commodity prices/ interest rates expectation (which were backed out from models i had to build)/ volume traded etc.. and i felt whilst it was interesting, i don't think i could continiously do and enjoy it.

    also the amounts we were dealing with was kind of stressful, as bonuses etc.. depended on pnl, and i've seen people on my desk lose hundreds of thousands on trades, and i don't think i could handle the mental stress of having overnight positions (especially in the markets i was operating in), i.e when turkey had those political issues the markets were stupidly volatile, and expectations were so unclear, but we had to hold inventory (be long) because we expected alot of people to short the lira, but also had to have on hedges and manage our greeks accordingly (espically rho and theta on the futures).

    that being said, it was very adrenaline pumping and exciting being in the atmosphere on the trading floor, and the culture of the firm i was at was absolutely brilliant. some funny ongoings and cool traditions which brings the trading floor together (much more exciting than equities )

    ibd m&a (product):
    this was a lot more of a relaxed laid back atmosphere overall. the m&a floors for the most part is generally quieter and we work on corporate deals (long term projects). i found that i actually added value here (maybe because you can't actually initiate trade until you've graduated and passed your FCA exams). i worked on quite a few deals... both sell side/ buy side & was involved in a few due-dilligence tasks and valuation metrics. i enjoyed the feeling of getting to understand what drives the companies who we advise (our clients), and understand a bit more about the technical aspects.

    the work is also alot more varied and everyday is different in terms of what we do. one day i could be working on a pitch book, the next on valuation, the next answering client queries and performing ad-hoc tasks i.e we had a private equity client in the 2nd round bidding process looking to buyout (leveraged) a european metals packaging firm. as an associate was busy they got me in on a conference regarding the deal aspects and i was listening in on discussions on how to improve the firms operating capacities and how to broaden the potential consumer base (which i learnt quite a lot from). anyhow, the client was sent a 800 page vendor due diligence package detailing the metals packaging firms customers (but the customers names were all blocked out), and the client asked me to source the 20 biggest customers such that we can assess the growth potential, which i helped model. tasks like that required attention to detail, and i saw it as almost a game or puzzle which was very interesting to solve as i had to use company figures to source out the customers and real life events/product base etc..

    i think the collegiate atmosphere in m&a is also quite pleasent as there's a lot more group work as opposed to staring at 12 screens by yourself trying to improve your pnl. and also the longer term nature of the work actually helps you develop relationships, real knowledge of a business, attention to detail.. and because of the long hours, you're incentivised to become a lot more of an efficient and diligent worker.

    also we get free dinner and cabs home which is nice
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Daniel9998)
    Oo didn't know the difference was that big.

    Which division are you going into now btw? Have you already secured a graduate position?
    (Original post by Princepieman)
    IBD - didn't like the S&T lyfe, he's embraced models and bottles now

    He's interning (again) next summer.

    Posted from TSR Mobile

    ^ pretty much this

    i'm a 2nd year uni student

    i did a 1st year internship so i'm interning again at the same firm this year in m&a
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by gr8wizard10)
    haven't made any detailed post, i could do that but the general highlights are

    macro trading:
    found it to require too much thinking (i.e considering how markets will react to everything). for instance i was on EM FX forwards desk, and had to continiously consider how supply/demand of currency would change dependent on political influence/ fluctations in commodity prices/ interest rates expectation (which were backed out from models i had to build)/ volume traded etc.. and i felt whilst it was interesting, i don't think i could continiously do and enjoy it.

    also the amounts we were dealing with was kind of stressful, as bonuses etc.. depended on pnl, and i've seen people on my desk lose hundreds of thousands on trades, and i don't think i could handle the mental stress of having overnight positions (especially in the markets i was operating in), i.e when turkey had those political issues the markets were stupidly volatile, and expectations were so unclear, but we had to hold inventory (be long) because we expected alot of people to short the lira, but also had to have on hedges and manage our greeks accordingly (espically rho and theta on the futures).

    that being said, it was very adrenaline pumping and exciting being in the atmosphere on the trading floor, and the culture of the firm i was at was absolutely brilliant. some funny ongoings and cool traditions which brings the trading floor together (much more exciting than equities )

    ibd m&a (product):
    this was a lot more of a relaxed laid back atmosphere overall. the m&a floors for the most part is generally quieter and we work on corporate deals (long term projects). i found that i actually added value here (maybe because you can't actually initiate trade until you've graduated and passed your FCA exams). i worked on quite a few deals... both sell side/ buy side & was involved in a few due-dilligence tasks and valuation metrics. i enjoyed the feeling of getting to understand what drives the companies who we advise (our clients), and understand a bit more about the technical aspects.

    the work is also alot more varied and everyday is different in terms of what we do. one day i could be working on a pitch book, the next on valuation, the next answering client queries and performing ad-hoc tasks i.e we had a private equity client in the 2nd round bidding process looking to buyout (leveraged) a european metals packaging firm. as an associate was busy they got me in on a conference regarding the deal aspects and i was listening in on discussions on how to improve the firms operating capacities and how to broaden the potential consumer base (which i learnt quite a lot from). anyhow, the client was sent a 800 page vendor due diligence package detailing the metals packaging firms customers (but the customers names were all blocked out), and the client asked me to source the 20 biggest customers such that we can assess the growth potential, which i helped model. tasks like that required attention to detail, and i saw it as almost a game or puzzle which was very interesting to solve as i had to use company figures to source out the customers and real life events/product base etc..

    i think the collegiate atmosphere in m&a is also quite pleasent as there's a lot more group work as opposed to staring at 12 screens buy yourself trying to improve your pnl. and also the longer term nature of the work actually helps you develop relationships, real knowledge of a business, attention to detail.. and because of the long hours, you're incentivised to become a lot more of an efficient and diligent worker.

    also we get free dinner and cabs home which is nice
    Solid post, IBD is the way..

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    gr8wizard10
    Appreciate the insight. M&A keeps sounding better! You find the hours manageable over the 8(?) weeks? Bet those nights on 5 hours were killer!

    For clarity, since you have done IBD and S&T but are in your 2nd year, was one a spring week?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mathstatician)
    gr8wizard10
    Appreciate the insight. M&A keeps sounding better! You find the hours manageable over the 8(?) weeks?

    For clarity, since you have done IBD and S&T but are in your 2nd year, was one a spring week?
    i was on a rotation so i spent 3 weeks in each division (9 week internship in the summer of first year, following a good performance and passing further round of interviewers on one of my spring weeks - in association with programmes such as SEO/Rare)

    derivatives research (inflation-linked securities and swaps, covering EMEA)
    fx trading (emerging markets forwards)
    m&a (uk product coverage)

    -- for m&a specifically, the first week was incredibly hard, but once you get into the routine and accept that's how it's going to be it becomes a little more tolerable. a lot of people say they get burnt out (that's why it has such a huge turnover i guess). i don't think the worst thing is the hours per say, but the unpredictability.. i.e i had to work weekends, and even if i had plans i needed to prioritise work. for instance, if i started a project on monday, and the MD or client wanted it first thing monday morning, it meant i would need to work weekends.

    so during your period as an analyst/associate in M&A you essentially give your life to the bank, everything else is secondary (it's been known for people to get called back on their holidays).. you answer to the red blip of your blackberry 9700 :lol:. it's all part of the life package you serve as an investment banker, i guess it's just some of the life sacrifices you have to be willing to make. you have to just let friends/family/partners know that you might have to cancel on them every once in a while due to work commitments, but people are generally understanding and if something is majorly important your team should be able to cover (but don't make that a habit on an internship)
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Does S&T pay the same as IBD?


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by studos)
    Does S&T pay the same as IBD?


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    S&T pay is less but the hours are also less.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Terry Tibbs)
    S&T pay is less but the hours are also less.
    but it's still front office!
    what are the differences in pay
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by studos)
    but it's still front office!
    what are the differences in pay
    Depends on too many things to answer.

    S&T pay is variable based on PnL produced. It's well known that a top trader or salesperson would outpace a banker but the average banker would earn more than an average salesperson/trader.

    Bonus is lower at the entry level in S&T because you don't start producing/adding value to the bottom line until you're given a book. In IBD, you hit the ground running from day 1 after your training.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Depends on too many things to answer.

    S&T pay is variable based on PnL produced. It's well known that a top trader or salesperson would outpace a banker but the average banker would earn more than an average salesperson/trader.

    Bonus is lower at the entry level in S&T because you don't start producing/adding value to the bottom line until you're given a book. In IBD, you hit the ground running from day 1 after your training.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    This might seem like a stupid question but you know how you get training when you're hired, do you get that same training on an internship before you start or are you expected to know the ins and outs?
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Axlerod)
    This might seem like a stupid question but you know how you get training when you're hired, do you get that same training on an internship before you start or are you expected to know the ins and outs?
    Training for interns is usually a week. Then they get distributed to whichever desks they were assigned/they chose to work on/that chose them - it's normally a rotational scheme across 2-3 desks.

    I believe some elite boutiques even fly you out to NYC for this week.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What's your favourite Christmas sweets?
    Useful resources

    Articles:

    Guide to investment bankingGuide to consultancy

    Featured recruiter profiles:

    Deutsche Bank logo

    Deutsche Bank is recruiting

    "Thrive in an international banking environment"

    Quick link:

    Unanswered investment banking and consultancy threads

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.