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Muslim self-criticism Watch

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    (Original post by fatima1998)
    "few" :lol:
    there are loads on Islam... :yep:
    plus as i said... i dont wanna criticise anyone because there is no good happening other than spreading hatred between people...
    we all should go towards humanity and leave religions alone... but thats hardly gonna happen
    Going towards humanity would involve not leaving religion alone.
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    (Original post by fatima1998)
    "few" :lol:
    there are loads on Islam... :yep:
    So, just to be clear, your problem isn't with threads critical of Islam per se, but with the number of such threads? :holmes:

    plus as i said... i dont wanna criticise anyone because there is no good happening other than spreading hatred between people...
    If you were slightly more educated about world affairs, you'd know that most religious hatred is perpetrated by those who are themselves religious, against those that they deem not religious enough/religious in the wrong way. That you're more keen to shut down any discussion about these matters than you are to do something about actual religious hatred (e.g. the genocides being perpetrated by a certain rogue state in the Middle East) is of no surprise, sadly. :sad:

    we all should go towards humanity and leave religions alone... but thats hardly gonna happen
    Implying that opposition to religion and a commitment to secularism is the opposite of 'humanity...' Come to think of it, I think it's best if you don't take part in these threads (for whatever misguided reasons) and limit your contributions to a few platitudinous whines about 'Islamophobia.'
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    (Original post by fatima1998)
    "few" :lol:
    there are loads on Islam... :yep:
    plus as i said... i dont wanna criticise anyone because there is no good happening other than spreading hatred between people...
    we all should go towards humanity and leave religions alone... but thats hardly gonna happen
    If religions are left alone the dark ages will return. The reason we're even having this discussion is that people began criticising religion in a period called the enlightenment 300 years ago. Since then scientific advancement has been off the charts. However this is only the case where religion has been freely criticised and so places like Saudi Arabia have contributed nothing to this.

    In fact the golden age of Islam when Bagdad was the centre of science and progress ended because of an Islamic clerk called Al Ghazarli who encouraged Islamic fundamentalism. In fact, before then Muslims in Bagdad hadn't really followed the Quran, so Christians and Jews were accepted there and many ideas from different religious groups were shared, which is what enabled progress. As soon as Al Ghazarli turned everyone back to following the Quran this progress ceased to happen because the Christians and Jews were persecuted due to Islamic doctrine and ideas were no longer being shared.

    The reason these dark ages have persisted even in modern times is because the religion itself quashes all talk of alternate answers to life's questions and instead uses the cop out of "because Allah" to keep people in line. This is true of all the Abrahamic religions though to varying degrees of severity. These religions also employ the use of irrational fear and scaremongery to subjugate people. The whole concept of 'Hell' is merely a threat to prevent apostasy. From reading the Quran I've noticed that in Islam people are repeatedly taught to fear Allah and are told that if they don't follow the teachings of Mohammad (pbuh), as violent and brutal as they are, they will invoke Allah's wrath and will burn in Hell for an eternity. Again, this is a recurring theme in Abrahamic religions. You can see the same scaremongery being employed in the bible (particularly in the Old Testament) and the Torah as well.

    The effect of this is that people become so afraid of going to Hell and even of their God, that they can't cope emotionally with the idea of questioning those beliefs. It also leads to a severe decline in critical thinking ability and even in IQ. Because of the reduced ability to think for oneself, the belief system seems even more plausible to them and you end up with a cycle of ignorance and blind faith developing. This is why the dark ages lasted so long and why they're still going on in the ME.

    Francis Bacon, a philosopher and scientist often hailed as one of the two harbingers of the enlightenment and the father of the scientific method, believed that through science all human beings could overcome ignorance and lead more productive and comfortable lives. He's been proven right by the continued advances in technology, medicine and all other sciences which enrich our lives. This was only possible because of criticising religion.
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    So the islamphobes have discovered an Arab who "confirms" what they have been claiming all along.

    I hope the people with common sense understand that the claim that the terrorists are prevalent amongst muslims and are nurtured by us are completely baseless. This is just one woman's speech and holds no basis whatsoever.

    I just find it hilarious how the islamophobes take this as the ultimate truth.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    So the islamphobes have discovered an Arab who "confirms" what they have been claiming all along.

    I hope the people with common sense understand that the claim that the terrorists are prevalent amongst muslims and are nurtured by us are completely baseless. This is just one woman's speech and holds no basis whatsoever.

    I just find it hilarious how the islamophobes take this as the ultimate truth.

    You truly have no intellectual input beyond calling referenced claims made by people smarter than you islamophobic, do you? Doesnt surprise me however given that u believe in magic words and flying horses.
    Debate back with reasoned arguments (if thats even possible) or go cry islamophobia in one of your ''safe spaces'', simpleton.

    Have no worry for the same way we civilized the christians, middle eastern secularists will civilize your barbaric Islamists too.
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    (Original post by ales79)
    You truly have no intellectual input beyond calling referenced claims made by people smarter than you islamophobic, do you? Doesnt surprise me however given that u believe in magic words and flying horses.
    Debate back with reasoned arguments (if thats even possible) or go cry islamophobia in one of your ''safe spaces'', simpleton.

    Have no worry for the same way we civilized the christians, middle eastern secularists will civilize your barbaric Islamists too.
    It's conjecture. Not referenced claims of any significance.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    It's conjecture. Not referenced claims of any significance.
    Tell me which part is conjecture and historically inaccurate.


    Is there any sutuation hypothetically possible where islam would be at fault. Is this even within the boundary of possibility for you?


    I will presume it is no, Islamic terrorism could kill your entire family tomorrow, islamic terrorism could wipe out mankind and you would still be apologetic, inevitably pointing fingers because its always the Jews and Americans.

    And there you have the danger of many muslims bring people, the huge majority of Muslims are completely incapable of self reflection. Its a incredibly dangerous point of view to hold, of infallibility.

    No i am not an Islamophobe half my family is Muslim. Context is a funny thing, you can take the Quran out of context, you can generalize muslims, so long as its positive. If its negative youre ill informed, taking out of context and just wrong because duh god.
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    (Original post by ales79)
    Tell me which part is conjecture and historically inaccurate.


    Is there any sutuation hypothetically possible where islam would be at fault. Is this even within the boundary of possibility for you?


    I will presume it is no, Islamic terrorism could kill your entire family tomorrow, islamic terrorism could wipe out mankind and you would still be apologetic, inevitably pointing fingers because its always the Jews and Americans.

    And there you have the danger of many muslims bring people, the huge majority of Muslims are completely incapable of self reflection. Its a incredibly dangerous point of view to hold, of infallibility.

    No i am not an Islamophobe half my family is Muslim. Context is a funny thing, you can take the Quran out of context, you can generalize muslims, so long as its positive. If its negative youre ill informed, taking out of context and just wrong because duh god.
    No, no. Lol. You're missing the point entirely. This video's main point is that we're the ones nurturing and helping the terrorists when that is in fact baseless.

    NB: Btw, majority of people do not generalise muslims positively whilst it is actually the opposite; they are generalised negatively almost all of the time.
    No one group should be generalised on the actions of a few, beit muslims, jews christians hindus etc
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    No, no. Lol. You're missing the point entirely. This video's main point is that we're the ones nurturing and helping the terrorists when that is in fact baseless.

    NB: Btw, majority of people do not generalise muslims positively whilst it is actually the opposite; they are generalised negatively almost all of the time.
    No one group should be generalised on the actions of a few, beit muslims, jews christians hindus etc
    Do i think the average muslim does, no thats ridivulous. But thats clearly not what the video suggests. Does the Saudi regime, undeniably. Its been proven by every single intelligence agency. Do you deny this?

    Do you really hold Islam, Muslims and Islamic states at no fault for terrorism within their borders which is justified scripturally, the only distinction for their terrorism being context which doesnt make it much better to me.

    It is this what the lady refers to as 'we', Islamic societies and particularly their governments, not people like you who just try to live a decent life.

    I agree muslims generally dont get good PR, but whoms fault is that? Is it the wests fault that 99% of the major news coming out the middle east inevitably involves Islamic terrorism? If you want to point fingers, point at your own people for its them who carry these atrocities out. The problem is that many muslims flat out refuse personal accountability, its always a grand conspiracy and never their fault.

    How would you perceive a region and religion which every single day has its followers blowing **** up, killing innocent people all in the name of their God. Would you perceive it any different, cause i wouldnt. It takes me back to my initial point, untill Muslims manage to take personal responsibility rather than pawning those off to Allah, Shaytaan or the Jews they will never progress.
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    (Original post by ales79)
    The problem with Muslims is that they will never be able to take responsibility. The world could be destroyed by Islamic terrorism, civilization in its entirety could be wiped out through Islamic terrorism and still Muslims would find others to point fingers at. The victim mindset will naturally resort to extreme mental gymnastics to justify and detract the entirety of the fault from Islam at all costs. I'm a middle easterner myself and its simply undeniable, the perception of Muslims regarding the Quran is not rooted in reality, neither will the actions undertaken by Muslims ever matter to them.

    Fear a lack of self criticism and reflection, for its dangerous.
    What exactly do you want the average Muslim to do in order to "take responsibility" to your satisfaction?

    By the way I agree with what Nadine said, though it is the responsibility of Islamic leaders and scholars who actually have an influence to promote a tolerance and challenge the extremism that some of them were responsible for fostering in the first place. I don't think that the average Muslim family going about their daily lives should be held accountable.

    There are several things that could destroy the world if allowed to grow.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    What exactly do you want the average Muslim to do in order to "take responsibility" to your satisfaction?

    By the way I agree with what Nadine said, though it is the responsibility of Islamic leaders and scholars who actually have an influence to promote a tolerance and challenge the extremism that some of them were responsible for fostering in the first place. I don't think that the average Muslim family going about their daily lives should be held accountable.

    There are several things that could destroy the world if allowed to grow.
    I believe i made clear that i do not believe Muslims should issue an apology for terrorists, that is ridiculous.

    What i said however is that they should acknowledge it is certain interpretation of Islam that give rise to such extremism. The fault lies with Islamic countries who not only create an environment for these ideas to thrive but some outright support it.

    What many muslims do instead is finger point. Its not IS, its the zionists, its not Al Qaeda, its the CIA. Thats the issue. Accept that it is Muslims who carried these atrocities out and dont pretend every heinous act carried out is a conspiracy against Islam. Only when you recognize a problem you can address it, most Muslims refuse to recognize it and blame everyone but themselves.
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    (Original post by ales79)
    I believe i made clear that i do not believe Muslims should issue an apology for terrorists, that is ridiculous.

    What i said however is that they should acknowledge it is certain interpretation of Islam that give rise to such extremism. The fault lies with Islamic countries who not only create an environment for these ideas to thrive but some outright support it.

    What many muslims do instead is finger point. Its not IS, its the zionists, its not Al Qaeda, its the CIA. Thats the issue. Accept that it is Muslims who carried these atrocities out and dont pretend every heinous act carried out is a conspiracy against Islam. Only when you recognize a problem you can address it, most Muslims refuse to recognize it and blame everyone but themselves.
    Ah, I see what you mean now.
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    (Original post by ales79)
    Do i think the average muslim does, no thats ridivulous. But thats clearly not what the video suggests. Does the Saudi regime, undeniably. Its been proven by every single intelligence agency. Do you deny this?

    Do you really hold Islam, Muslims and Islamic states at no fault for terrorism within their borders which is justified scripturally, the only distinction for their terrorism being context which doesnt make it much better to me.

    It is this what the lady refers to as 'we', Islamic societies and particularly their governments, not people like you who just try to live a decent life.

    I agree muslims generally dont get good PR, but whoms fault is that? Is it the wests fault that 99% of the major news coming out the middle east inevitably involves Islamic terrorism? If you want to point fingers, point at your own people for its them who carry these atrocities out. The problem is that many muslims flat out refuse personal accountability, its always a grand conspiracy and never their fault.

    How would you perceive a region and religion which every single day has its followers blowing **** up, killing innocent people all in the name of their God. Would you perceive it any different, cause i wouldnt. It takes me back to my initial point, untill Muslims manage to take personal responsibility rather than pawning those off to Allah, Shaytaan or the Jews they will never progress.
    This is a longer conversation that will take ages to finish. I'mma leave you with this:

    Saudi government has essentially two components.
    1. Religious component which has, in actuality, zero links to terrorism. It is the wahhabism/salafism you hear about. Fact.
    2. Business/politics component in which the businessmen and politicians don't care much about practicing the religion (look at their "haram" lifestyles) and would do anything to make a bit of profit. These guys very well may fund the terrorists but they are not with them in ideology. They are just very corrupt and love money.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    This is a longer conversation that will take ages to finish. I'mma leave you with this:

    Saudi government has essentially two components.
    1. Religious component which has, in actuality, zero links to terrorism. It is the wahhabism/salafism you hear about. Fact.
    2. Business/politics component in which the businessmen and politicians don't care much about practicing the religion (look at their "haram" lifestyles) and would do anything to make a bit of profit. These guys very well may fund the terrorists but they are not with them in ideology. They are just very corrupt and love money.
    Lmao. Here we go, despite all evidence by global intelligence agencies, documents etc, despite the public and incredibly stupid, sexist and extremist rulings made by Saudi Grand Mufti it is not the fault of Saudis. Wahhbists/Salafists are incredibly peaceful, its as always the darned media which misleads us!

    No guys, its the fault of the Munafiqoon, the atheists who are greedy and give weapons and incentive to extremists to kill others and blow themselves up. No it has no correlation at all with all the madrassas Arabs fund globally. All those billions come directly from wealthy Saudies, we'll ignore the fact that all wealthy Saudis are either part of the royal family or have ties as of course, forget logic.

    By inference, shes of course blaming the west as well for surely business interests are not limited to just Arabs? Its our fault once again!

    There you have it people, a prime example. Its never their fault, its not even the fault of Islamic countries, its once again atheists/our fault. Pathetic, disgraceful and typical, beautifully illustrated my point. I'm sure if you prodded her she provably would blame Iran however. The Islamic world cannot progress because of enablers like you who would rather blame everyone else rather than actually bring about positive change.
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    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...3#post63838843

    I don't watch Memritv anymore for that reason.
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    (Original post by fatima1998)
    ".
    we all should go towards humanity and leave religions alone... but thats hardly gonna happen
    no

    especially because religions are not leaving us alone . Religions do not simply consist of individual practice, praying, fasting etc : religions claim to control and shape societies, entire political, legal and economic systems
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    hello BN
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Can you read english?
    no, unfortunately I and many other people on here are entirely unable to do that.
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Do you suffer from dyslexia or any other learning difficulty?
    yes

    please, be indulgent with us poor handicapped people
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    You're such an islamophobe
    well, being an islamophobe is quite natural, since opposing Islam is something any reasonable person should do
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Wahhabism and salafism is SEPARATE to terrorism. Get that through your thick head!
    unfortunately our thick heads are unable to follow you along that line, since you are not presenting us with any reasonable argument : just insults

    all the best
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Please honestly answer this question. Can you read english? Nah forget that. Do you suffer from dyslexia or any other learning difficulty? You're such an islamophobe that you're blind to reading any argument that faults your logic/ideas.

    Read back! I SAID that it was the fault of the greedy politicians and businessmen. I never said saudi's innocent. You guys think that any bad thing a muslim does, it is part of their religion. What idiots.

    Read back to what I said, douchebag. The politicians and business men who care not much for religion are those that fund terrorism and stuff. Wahhabism and salafism is SEPARATE to terrorism. Get that through your thick head!

    "Religious component which has, in actuality, zero links to terrorism. It is the wahhabism/salafism you hear about. Fact.""

    If that doesn't say Saudi Arabia has zero links to extremism I don't know what it says. Wahhabism and Salafism is the what causes the terrorism, for entertainment let me highlight a few rulings

    - Women driving causes increased homosexuality and infidelity (KSA)
    - You cant live on mars (UAE Islamic Authority)
    - Haram to play Pokemon (KSA committee for scientific research)
    - FSA are allowed to rape non-sunni women as 'sexual jihad' (Wahabi/Salafi sheikh Yasir al-ajlawni)

    I can go on...


    But here, we have the secondary typical Muslim thought process. Islam is the truth so any criticism of Islam must be Islamophobia as you cannot disagree with it on a moral level.

    But now, I too cannot criticize Islam so I am now an Islamophobe. Find below the number of times I made it clear pre-emptively that I do not hold average Muslims responsible for terrorism. Also note how I clearly stated half my family is Muslim so being Islamophobic would mean be somewhat counter productive.

    ''I believe i made clear that i do not believe Muslims should issue an apology for terrorists, that is ridiculous''

    ''Do i think the average muslim does, no thats ridivulous. But thats clearly not what the video suggests. ''

    ''No i am not an Islamophobe half my family is Muslim. ''


    Typical answer really, another textbook example. You're the gift that keeps giving , pathetic cry baby.
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    What exactly do you want the average Muslim to do in order to "take responsibility" to your satisfaction?
    That would be great if at each atrocity committed in the name of Allah, they could just stop saying that the perpetrators are "not true Muslim".
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    (Original post by mariachi;[url="tel:64102291")
    64102291[/url]]hello BN

    no, unfortunately I and many other people on here are entirely unable to do that. yes

    please, be indulgent with us poor handicapped people well, being an islamophobe is quite natural, since opposing Islam is something any reasonable person should do unfortunately our thick heads are unable to follow you along that line, since you are not presenting us with any reasonable argument : just insults

    all the best
    Hi mariachi. I still don't understand how you have so much time to get involved in other people's arguments. You're literally spending a LOT of time reading through threads related to Islam so you can criticise it and feel good about yourself? It doesn't make sense bro. It just sounds very unhealthy.

    Also, what's not a reasonable argument to you? Anything that you can't combat is "an unreasonable argument"? I explained how salafism is separate from terrorism. What's more to say?
 
 
 
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