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    (Original post by Davij038)
    https://www.scribd.com/doc/307423185...-Hidden-Agenda


    'those at the heart of the Leave campaign have anagenda that they want tokeep hidden from theBritish public.It is an agenda that envisionsa free market, low regulation, race-to-the-bottom Britain; aBritain in which companies are free to treat workers and theenvironment as they please, andwheregovernment retreats and leaves everything to the market. To get to thisdystopia, theOuters know they must firsttake Britain out of the EU'
    Utter nonsense.

    The head of the "In" campaign, Lord Rose, said that wages will probably rise if Britain leaves the EU! How is that a race to the bottom? (Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-a-good-thing/)

    Think about it, if the labour pool is more limited...do you treat your workers better or do you treat them worse? If Fred can't be instantly replaced by a worker from Eastern Europe willing to do his job for half the money, do you treat Fred better or worse?


    Just absolute propaganda, completely devoid of fact and not even vaguely sensible.


    SS
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Germany and France also have leaders committed to the EU and wary of discontent in their own (and other ) countries. European democracies are also far less averse to Tariffs than in the UK too.

    Whilst I happily admit I would want to stay in the EU even if we would automatically get free aces to the singlemarket, It makes no sense to me why an EU Which is so useless, incompetent etc (as the Mail etc Would have us believe) will suddenly do whatever we want.

    We would post brexit have to pay rather a lot of money to operate in our largest market in which we would have no say. As the Norwegians have put it: it's the worst of both worlds.
    I do love it how all inners seem to think that Norway are the only nation with access to the market, I've listen in another thread the dozens of nations with access or gaining access

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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Utter nonsense.
    Which part? It's pretty well established what people like Boris et al think.

    The head of the "In" campaign, Lord Rose, said that wages will probably rise if Britain leaves the EU! How is that a race to the bottom? (Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-a-good-thing/)
    That's presuming that we completely halt immigration which no one aside from the BNP want to do.

    Additionally- in the words of ukips former business spokesman 'British workers are lazy and won't do the work'. Having spent six years on a council estate I assure you that in my experience the natives will on the whole Not be prepared to do the labour provided by Eastern Europeans.

    Lastly , companies have an ethical obligation to pay a fair wage regardless of how much choice there is. Journalists working at the express aren't being undercut by polish migrants but have protested at the poor pay and working conditions.

    [/quote]
    Think about it, if the labour pool is more limited...do you treat your workers better or do you treat them worse? If Fred can't be instantly replaced by a worker from Eastern Europe willing to do his job for half the money, do you treat Fred better or worse?
    SS[/QUOTE]

    Ridiculously simplistic.

    It depends on demand, cost, skill and performance. Many low skill companies would move onto automation if they thought British workers were not value for money. That's why we have things like employment protection, workers rights and unions all of which are supported by the EU. You don't hear any doctors or engineers complaining about poles taking their jobs.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I do love it how all inners seem to think that Norway are the only nation with access to the market, I've listen in another thread the dozens of nations with access or gaining access

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    Well that was the option most cited by the eurosceptics and as another country in Europe it seems a fair comparison.
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Utter nonsense.

    The head of the "In" campaign, Lord Rose, said that wages will probably rise if Britain leaves the EU! How is that a race to the bottom? (Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-a-good-thing/)

    Think about it, if the labour pool is more limited...do you treat your workers better or do you treat them worse? If Fred can't be instantly replaced by a worker from Eastern Europe willing to do his job for half the money, do you treat Fred better or worse?


    Just absolute propaganda, completely devoid of fact and not even vaguely sensible.


    SS
    Additionally this: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6914611.html
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Well that was the option most cited by the eurosceptics and as another country in Europe it seems a fair comparison.
    And a nominal GDP one seventh of our own, not sure about the trade information between Norway and the EU though.
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    Having read the background only, It just makes me want to support leave more now,
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Germany and France also have leaders committed to the EU and wary of discontent in their own (and other ) countries. European democracies are also far less averse to Tariffs than in the UK too.

    Whilst I happily admit I would want to stay in the EU even if we would automatically get free aces to the singlemarket, It makes no sense to me why an EU Which is so useless, incompetent etc (as the Mail etc Would have us believe) will suddenly do whatever we want.

    We would post brexit have to pay rather a lot of money to operate in our largest market in which we would have no say. As the Norwegians have put it: it's the worst of both worlds.
    Exactly. The out campaign are basing their campaign on these supposed magical deals we will sign without telling us what they are.
    The reality as you say is that it will take an awful lot of work, time and money and we'll end up back at our starting point, although with a lot less influence.

    Leaving the EU for a lot of people is a lot more symbolic then anything to do with economics. Much of the 'red tape' are workers rights, consumer protections etc.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Exactly. The out campaign are basing their campaign on these supposed magical deals we will sign without telling us what they are.
    The reality as you say is that it will take an awful lot of work, time and money and we'll end up back at our starting point, although with a lot less influence.

    Leaving the EU for a lot of people is a lot more symbolic then anything to do with economics. Much of the 'red tape' are workers rights, consumer protections etc.
    I'm not sure how independently signing trade deals taking far less time is the same position.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I'm not sure how independently signing trade deals taking far less time is the same position.

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    We want to leave the EU and then straight way to sign a deal with the EU to gain access to the market we've just left. What's the point in that? As Cameron said, the idea that the EU are just going to give us a sweetheart deal after leaving is hopeful at best.

    The Out campaign have no idea about what these deals are. They just keep saying we'll sign all these wonderful deals.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We want to leave the EU and then straight way to sign a deal with the EU to gain access to the market we've just left. What's the point in that? As Cameron said, the idea that the EU are just going to give us a sweetheart deal after leaving is hopeful at best.

    The Out campaign have no idea about what these deals are. They just keep saying we'll sign all these wonderful deals.
    Last I checked there is a lot more to the EU than just the single market.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Last I checked there is a lot more to the EU than just the single market.
    And a lot of it good too.
    I just wish the out campaign were a little more balanced and honest. The in campaign aren't pretending the EU is the greatest thing ever. Genuinely the message is on balance it's better and more secure to be in even though it's not perfect. Whereas the out-campaign have gone for 'it's the worst thing ever!'.

    It's strange seeing the likes of Farage who's advocated privatization of the NHS now suddenly caring about what the nasty EU will do to it.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    And a lot of it good too.
    I just wish the out campaign were a little more balanced and honest. The in campaign aren't pretending the EU is the greatest thing ever. Genuinely the message is on balance it's better and more secure to be in even though it's not perfect. Whereas the out-campaign have gone for 'it's the worst thing ever!'.

    It's strange seeing the likes of Farage who's advocated privatization of the NHS now suddenly caring about what the nasty EU will do to it.
    Let's see if I can find the thread where I outline just how absurd the in campaign are
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    Bornblue here we go:

    *scrolls through timeline of friend that shares almost everything BSE post*
    Farmers say prices could go up 5-8%, forget to mention that that is roughly what the subsidies are anyway, so it just shifts the cost
    Say the leave campaign cannot be trusted on the NHS because they have been trying to privatise it, so stoop to Labour levels and ignore what the defenders of the NHS have been saying on our side
    Their calculator of the cost to leave for my household, worst case scenario cost is lower than worst case scenario savings
    They attribute the success of NATO to the EU despite the constant foreign policy failings of the EU, even on their doorstep
    They claim only 7% of businesses want to leave...according to the BCCE, I guess they mainly only asked the big coroporations who lobby the EU and get 10x what they put in out through beneficial regulations
    They've gone for the old "look, we have a couple of hundred doctors saying something!" How many doctors are there?
    They seem to ignore the fact that when travelling in Europe you should have travel insurance
    They are arguing that suddenly the BPL will be devoid of European players even though those from outside Europe manage to get into the country to work just fine
    Further there were claims that we would be kicked out of European tournaments, despite them being independent of the EU
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Ah the EU. Now being billed as gallant protector and hero of the British working man I see.

    I wonder if the Tories will use some more taxpayers money to put those thoughts into a second leafleting campaign?
    Since the Social Chapter the EU has been better for human/workers' rights than the UK. It's not setting the bar that high but the venal UK is still unable to clear it. Thus I am pro-European, even though Europe is neoliberal/austerian.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Bornblue here we go:

    -U
    I don't see much of that as sensationalist.

    The NHS point for one is a fair one. Lots of right wing people who have been in favour of privatizing the NHS are now saying we need to stay in to protect it.

    A lot of this 'red tape' include workers rights and minimum food standards etc.

    Again though, people have reservations about leaving, but I don't know anyone claiming the EU is perfect, but just that it's better to stay in than leave. The out-campaign are pretty much claiming it's worse than Hitler.
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    Well lookee here

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6979836.html



    How dare they? This is worse than that time they proposed a bankers bonus tax! They obviously hate our freedom!
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I know right? You can't even have an electric fire in your bath because of the politically correct brigade

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmsV1TuESrc
    I like how health safety gets confused with political correctness :rofl:
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Utter nonsense.

    The head of the "In" campaign, Lord Rose, said that wages will probably rise if Britain leaves the EU! How is that a race to the bottom? (Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-a-good-thing/)

    Think about it, if the labour pool is more limited...do you treat your workers better or do you treat them worse? If Fred can't be instantly replaced by a worker from Eastern Europe willing to do his job for half the money, do you treat Fred better or worse?


    Just absolute propaganda, completely devoid of fact and not even vaguely sensible.


    SS
    To be fair, they have a pretty strong incentive to lie.

    I mean of they did want to make people work longer hours for less pay in worse conditions they aren't going to tell them that because then they would lose, resoundingly.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    To be fair, they have a pretty strong incentive to lie.

    I mean of they did want to make people work longer hours for less pay in worse conditions they aren't going to tell them that because then they would lose, resoundingly.
    But he didn't lie- and he gave reasons as to why it would be a bad thing, which predictably eluded the media.
 
 
 
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