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Eu: In or out?

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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    see in reality younger people dont give a sh*t about sovereignty and british pride but all the people on TSR do for some reason. In reality younger people are worried about the economic future whereas people on TSR are more scared that our houses are going to be taken by foreigners.
    Lol economic future.

    - Paying for Eastern European infrastructure.
    - Wage depression.
    - Massive unemployment.
    - Moving manufacturing to non-Eu countries.
    - Strain on services like the NHS.
    - Housing priority for asylum seekers.
    - Low barrier welfare requirements.
    - TTIP - Privitisation by stealth, unable to nationalise industries like steel.
    - Easy movement from criminals in Eastern Europe, can't deport them easily either.
    - Paying for French farming.
    - Tax evasion.
    - Destruction of small business and communities.

    Not to mention the awful euro and bank bailouts. Europe can't even sort out its own economic problems let alone ours.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    So your priority is to abandon ship instead of helping it float? That does not speak international interests.
    What is international interests? Provoking Russia? Poorly handling the migrant crisis? Allowing multinationals to trample small business? Easy tax evasion? Forcing governments to privitise industry? Paying for roads in Poland?

    I want a united Europe. I don't want the current idiots in charge dictating policy.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    It is focusing on the problems across the world as well as our own - simple as.
    Yes, well it clearly isn't working very well is it? I have no objection to solving international issues, but i'd rather we be able to change things when the people in charge do a very bad job at it.

    I do not want a huge European state that is not accountable to its people.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    So your priority is to abandon ship instead of helping it float? That does not speak international interests.
    You are talking about very regional interests, I care more for the entire International community and Europe is a small part of that and so shouldn't be our main focus.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    How can you tell it's not working? Have you seen a world in which all countries acted in self interest? Of course not, no one has. But I imagine it'd look a bit like the world in the Middle Ages when we didn't have much contact with other civilisations, and those who we were in contact with - we were often at war with them.

    Various examples include:

    Putin's aggressive expansionism - I guarantee you that if it weren't for the EU and other international organisations, Putin would have done a lot worse already
    ISIS - if we don't care about other countries we would be doing borderline nothing to stop this terrorist group, they may well have taken a larger portion of Syria and Iraq without our airstrikes
    North Korea - our sanctions and international pressure put against them could well be the only thing putting them off from going total berserk on the South and taking them by force

    These are just three examples of why we should focus internationally, you'll find thousands throughout history. Take WW2 for example, the cause of it was a lack of international pressure on Germany to stop expanding and reclaiming territory lost through Versailles Treaty.

    Leaving the EU is a step towards isolationism, and the EU gives Britain, and Britain gives the EU leverage on the international stage.
    Hahahaha. We didn't have planes in the Middle Ages. No trains either. Is Europe planning on moving to Africa? Oh wait no immigration policy is to move it here. I suppose you're going to argue without the union our aerospace industry would be destroyed and we would have to write letters (likely with chalk because the union has already outsourced our production of writing materials)

    North Korea - is mainly due to US pressure.
    ISIS - current policy has allowed them to exploit us, freedom of movement, the migrant crisis, refusal to deal with attackers, ease of asylum, hate preachers protected by laws, segregation in the name of multiculturalism, not to mention British involvement is independent of EU approval.
    Russia - was caused by stupid Europeans like Soros throwing money into protestors, Russia is a state and is entitled to protect its interests as it sees fit, see the US involvement in Latin America as an example of another state doing what it wants for security reasons. Not to mention it was the Russians and Eastern Europeans who threw off communism not the US and EU saviours, no no no, we just profited from the oligarchs who exploited the population for a quicking selling of industry.

    WW2 was an extreme example and was caused by the failure of international diplomacy, it was also a time without the Internet, aeroplanes and the kind of communication we have today. Not to mention it was our European partners who abandoned liberal values in the first place. It's even arguable that it was caused by financing of the Nazis by American industrialists and Ango-French appeasers who wanted to use the Nazis as a buffer to communism. Sounds a lot like EU policy appeasing fascists in Ukraine to get at the Russians.
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    (Original post by Sebastian Bartlett)
    You are talking about very regional interests, I care more for the entire International community and Europe is a small part of that and so shouldn't be our main focus.
    Anglosphere, Commonwealth and India are all excellent examples of non-EU alliances which we could benefit far more from if need be. Hong Kong traditions as a British colony, Singapore, China in general has opened up, granted it has antagonised Japan but the people who seem to think Europe is the only thing going are stuck in the last century. Israel and ME, the proliferation of Islam will actually make it easier to negotiate with those countries as well in the future most likely.

    People are playing catch up and the EU is pulling us back.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    I was using a basic analogy to make a point, it seems that I've instead wasted my time and confused you.

    And your point about North Korea is pretty much confirming what I said - international interests are vital for a stable world. I wasn't talking about the EU, I'm talking about any situation with international affairs.

    What has any of that ISIS policy got to do with what I was talking about? My point, which you missed, is that they would be an even greater threat if we just ignored their advancements in Syria and Iraq. Which, thanks to international intervention, was stopped.

    And are you really trying to justify Russia's aggressive expansionism in the Ukraine? Come on, that's like Britain sending an army to India and taking it just because they used to be a colony.

    And the last time I checked, we had aeroplanes before WW2, we had sophisticated communications. The only main thing that differs is that everyone was acting in self-interests in Europe and America. No one wanted to stand up to Germany because of crippling economic conditions and fears of another war.
    Check again because they weren't anywhere near the quality they are today. The communication makes diplomacy far, far easier.

    You also seem to have forgot about the existence of the United Nations...

    Ukraine is on the border of Russia and a lot of its people identify as Russians particularly in the East, hence the civil war. It's just typical European arrogance.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    How can you tell it's not working? Have you seen a world in which all countries acted in self interest? Of course not, no one has. But I imagine it'd look a bit like the world in the Middle Ages when we didn't have much contact with other civilisations, and those who we were in contact with - we were often at war with them.

    Various examples include:

    Putin's aggressive expansionism - I guarantee you that if it weren't for the EU and other international organisations, Putin would have done a lot worse already
    ISIS - if we don't care about other countries we would be doing borderline nothing to stop this terrorist group, they may well have taken a larger portion of Syria and Iraq without our airstrikes
    North Korea - our sanctions and international pressure put against them could well be the only thing putting them off from going total berserk on the South and taking them by force

    These are just three examples of why we should focus internationally, you'll find thousands throughout history. Take WW2 for example, the cause of it was a lack of international pressure on Germany to stop expanding and reclaiming territory lost through Versailles Treaty.

    Leaving the EU is a step towards isolationism, and the EU gives Britain, and Britain gives the EU leverage on the international stage.
    No NATO does. All of our involvement in recent conflicts has had very little to do with the EU. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq again.

    Also we get a voice on the world stage due to our military power and international aid.
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    I think people assume that if we leave the EU, we'll be leaving NATO and the UN. Which isn't the case. We're not going to be cut off from the rest of the world, every policy we have in place now will just be renegotiated, some might be in our favour, some might not, but that's the same as it is now.

    I'm voting out, but I can tell with all the scaremongering we'll probably stay in. Also, David Cameron says we should stay, but what else can he say? If he tells us to leave and then the vote ends with stay, he's going to look like a right prick at the next summit.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    Are you honestly telling me that the worse communications and aeroplanes are what caused WW2, rather than the pretty obvious crippling economic conditions, countries acting in self interest, sympathy for Germany after the WW1 treaty, greater fear of Russian communism, a poorer version of the United Nations which had been undermined, and the list goes on.

    Please, if you're going to hold an unchangeable viewpoint, don't bother replying to me in the first place because its quite obvious that no matter how much I stress that international involvement is vital for a stable world, you'll ignore it.
    The irony is lost on you and anyone reading this will agree with me I think, I don't pretend you can persuade my view, it will certainly take better than the weak arguments you have listed here which seem to rely on pretending the EU and international interests are the same thing.

    To reiterate, not just to you but to anyone reading.

    - Commercialised transport has made it easier for civilians to travel to other countries: advances in shipping, trains and aeroplanes has meant a cheaper and easier exposure to other cultures and integration with other people. Hence a war will be less likely.

    - The United Nations will not suddenly disappear, meaning there will still be an international medium for diplomats to meet (excluding embassies and conferences), on the contrary the EU has been toxic for international relations with its freedom of movement making attacks by ISIL and similiar terrorist organisations much easier.

    - The Ukranian Civil War is caused by the vast amount of ethnic Russians in the East and Russia wanting to protect its security interests from EU expansion.

    You can respond if you want but I don't see much point since we disagree, i've clarified my argument you can clarify yours.
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    (Original post by SemperLiber)
    I think people assume that if we leave the EU, we'll be leaving NATO and the UN. Which isn't the case. We're not going to be cut off from the rest of the world, every policy we have in place now will just be renegotiated, some might be in our favour, some might not, but that's the same as it is now.

    I'm voting out, but I can tell with all the scaremongering we'll probably stay in. Also, David Cameron says we should stay, but what else can he say? If he tells us to leave and then the vote ends with stay, he's going to look like a right prick at the next summit.
    Europe desperately wants us to stay which is why they ignore facts like that. I had completely forgot about NATO as well, at least I didn't also forget about the UN like the guy above.

    Cameron wants us to stay because it benefits his mates in power and multinational business, the more and more people I talk to who have actually looked at the facts and not government propaganda seem convinced there needs to be, at the minimum, desperate change to the EU if it wants to survive.
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    In.
    It's not perfect but on balance its better that we're in such an organisation.
    I want a Britain that looks outwards to the world. That works closely with its neighbours and encourages cooperation, not a Britain akin to 1920s America that shuts itself off from the rest of the world and looks inwards.


    The out campaign simply have no idea what a post Brexit Britain would look like and they haven't offered a vision with even the slightest bit of detail. Their response is 'yeah we'll sign all these wonderful trade deals' without telling us what the trade deals are. One minute they're saying they want a deal like Norway (despite the fact they are subject to every EU rule), then they say they don't. Then they say they want a deal like Canada, then they don't.

    Leaving the eu would be symbolic more than anything. It wouldn't stop immigration, it wouldn't make the refugee crisis go away, it won't stop Isis.

    Its not perfect, far from it but until and unless the out campaign can put forward a credible detailed alternative I'll be voting in:
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    In.
    It's not perfect but on balance its better that we're in such an organisation.
    I want a Britain that looks outwards to the world. That works closely with its neighbours and encourages cooperation, not a Britain akin to 1920s America that shuts itself off from the rest of the world and looks inwards.


    The out campaign simply have no idea what a post Brexit Britain would look like and they haven't offered a vision with even the slightest bit of detail. Their response is 'yeah we'll sign all these wonderful trade deals' without telling us what the trade deals are. One minute they're saying they want a deal like Norway (despite the fact they are subject to every EU rule), then they say they don't. Then they say they want a deal like Canada, then they don't.

    Leaving the eu would be symbolic more than anything. It wouldn't stop immigration, it wouldn't make the refugee crisis go away, it won't stop Isis.

    Its not perfect, far from it but until and unless the out campaign can put forward a credible detailed alternative I'll be voting in:
    What exactly do you expect from us? Negotiations can't begin until after we have withdrawn. When we joined the union did people complain that 'we couldn't possibly know what it would be like when we were in it'? Probably, we still took the risk anyway.
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    (Original post by string210)
    Apparently according to paper's i've read recently it suggests alot of students are going to vote in, and the majority of brexiters are middle aged to pensioners.
    I'm personally a brexiter but apparently i'm in the minority. Also if we did vote to leave, who would be prime minister , david cameron or someone else?

    So doing a few straw poll's because i'm interested so see if that's true.
    Out out out
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    Come on, 'cultural integration' is an infinitely negligible factor compared alongside the failed League of Nations, lack of foreign interests, isolationism, sympathy for Germany and fear of communism in causing WW2. Have you even studied what happened between WW1 and WW2?

    And you're missing my point again. I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT THE EU, this discussion originated from me saying that it is important to focus on international affairs.

    Why are you bringing up ethnic Russians? A nation could be filled with people who want to expand aggressively and cause turmoil, but you missed the point again. There are obviously many Ukrainians who don't favour this, so without international pressure, we would be allowing larger powers like Putin to bully smaller countries - and that is similar to what happened before WW2 - when Hitler marched into various territories which were seized by the Treaty of Versailles.
    Sorry but if you're not talking about the EU what are you even doing on this thread? This thread is about the EU. If you want to talk about Russia, the UN or failed states in general post elsewhere. I've already explained their relationship to the EU.

    There were pro Russian protests in Eastern Ukraine. You can't say Ukraine want to join the EU because of protests in the West and then ignore the ones in the East that didn't want to.
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    Firmly out.

    The 'In leaflet' is an absolute joke. It feels like the EU is more afraid of us leaving than we are afraid of leaving the EU. We export huge amounts of goods and we pay a huge amount of tax every year to the EU... if we leave, not only do we get to hold on to that ridiculous amount, but the EU end up with a massive void.

    The leaflet states that we hand over "slightly over a penny" to the EU for every pound of tax - just let that sink in.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    What exactly do you expect from us? Negotiations can't begin until after we have withdrawn. When we joined the union did people complain that 'we couldn't possibly know what it would be like when we were in it'? Probably, we still took the risk anyway.
    A vision, an alternative. Something to comfort the rest of us that we wouldn't just be taking a leap into the dark.

    It's all well and good saying leave the eu, but then what do we do? Which trade deals do we sign? Do we really think after leaving the eu that the eu is going to give us a sweetheart deal?
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    Please check up on your memory,

    I said:
    You saido yeah, this changed to international issues a while back.Goodbye, you've proven to me that I'm going to have to literally spoonfeed you everything. Not to mention you just outright denying that there are people in Ukraine who don't want Russia to take them.
    Please check up on your English because you're still wrong :rofl:
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    As I thought, don't waste my time again.
    Lol at wasting your time. Why are you guys always the same when you get it wrong, 'my time is so precious, pls don't waste my precious time' you respond anyway because you want the last word and you're afraid if you leave it like that you know you are wrong. If your time was really that valuable you wouldn't bother in the first place.

    This thread is about the EU. You spoke about international relations. I responded by pointing out the obvious, international relations do not depend on the EU.

    I am not responsible for your misunderstanding of the English language.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    speak for yourself,

    goodbye sock puppet, welcome to my block list, you dont troll on here with 40+ posts a day and not be a troll veteran
    I registered before you and very much welcome people on here to review our argument. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to find out who the aggressor is here.
 
 
 
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