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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    That is a change in attitude, which as I say, is not confined to medicine and is really a product of the last 25 years or so. I know an optician who, on qualifying and with help from the Bank of Mum and Dad, set up her own practice. That was almost seen as bizarre yet 30 years ago either setting up a practice or buying into one would have the obvious thing for an optician to do.
    A lot of younger GPs don't want to settle down too soon or they have a partner or spouse that also works so may need to move to get work. You can get a reasonable wage as a locum or salaried GP and don't have the responsibility of running a business.
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    Basically, it's in very few people's interests to increase the number of places.

    Universities are not interested in increasing the number of places to Home/EU students - medical students are very expensive compared with English students or non-EU medical students.

    The Department of Health would much rather spend a few thousand pounds recruiting already-trained staff from overseas, rather than tens of thousands of pounds on NHS bursaries and hospital training places for more UK medical students, even if this costs less in the long-term.

    And the BMA and the Royal Colleges would rather see the pay of their members protected - the government only agrees to pay doctors incredibly high salaries because the supply is very limited - so they are not out there campaigning to dramatically increase the number of medical school places.
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    (Original post by prospectivemed56)
    And the BMA and the Royal Colleges would rather see the pay of their members protected - the government only agrees to pay doctors incredibly high salaries because the supply is very limited...
    I suspect the highly qualified personnel, incredibly high pressure, long hours, and critical role also have something to do with it.

    And whilst 'protecting pay' sounds attractive, I think most doctors would risk it for the large and increasing rota gaps to be filled.
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    The costs of a single medical student are exponential when compared to other courses. Not to mention the need to expand foundation places after medical school, which in itself would cost millions.
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    The training route to become a qualified, accredited, trained doctor here in this country is just wholly inefficient and unsustainable. What we need is a much greater emphasis on primary, public, preventative healthcare professionals in the community, but that's sadly the area we are lacking the most in. Sorry any budding neurosurgeons or cardiothoracic surgeons on this forum, but you just aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.

    However, far from it, we are very lucky as a country compared to the 57 or so other countries in the world who are really suffering from a healthcare workforce crisis, partly due to the brain-drain we have created. I always find it ironic when I hear people complain about overseas-trained staff when half of the pre-medical students on this forum seem to be ready to jump ship to New Zealand, Australia etc. the moment this Junior Contract is forced upon us. Heh.

    I am not against increasing medical spaces and changing the admission system since it's been shown that academic achievement at secondary school has very little correlation to results at university. There is some argument to be made for the French system of medical education where everyone gets into medicine, but after 1st year there is a massive cull; however that does place enormous stress on medical students to be in the top 15% or so.

    (Original post by Zain-A)
    I'm quite curious about this, why is there such a shortage of psychs? Is the gov just ignoring mental health care, do doctors not want to specialise in pysch? Is it pretty intense? Bad conditions?
    On top of the very valid reasons already said, I just want to stress the point that there is unfortunately a lot of psychiatry stigma, discrimination and bashing from patients, the general public, and from other doctors. It can be difficult in that regards. However, I guess for some people that's what makes it a challenge and interesting. Also people underestimate the burden of mental health and how big a specialty psychiatry is.
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)

    I am not against increasing medical spaces and changing the admission system since it's been shown that academic achievement at secondary school has very little correlation to results at university. There is some argument to be made for the French system of medical education where everyone gets into medicine, but after 1st year there is a massive cull; however that does place enormous stress on medical students to be in the top 15% or so.


    Whatever that argument is, it's a poor one. The experience of our very own french unicorn on this forum is an example of just how poor;y the French medical education system compares to ours.
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    (Original post by navarre)
    Whatever that argument is, it's a poor one. The experience of our very own french unicorn on this forum is an example of just how poor;y the French medical education system compares to ours.
    It would eliminate the insane hoop-jumping system we have in place here, which only inflates every successive admission cycle - of needing higher grades, more work experience, more voluntary experience, more DofE metal awards, saving more African orphans - which makes medicine a lot more inaccessible for students who come from backgrounds who cannot afford those opportunities.

    I have heard about the 'gunner' medical school stories in France having spoken to medical students studying there. But even if you want to argue the French medical education system is flawed, their healthcare system is certainly doing something right: on a number of different crude health system indicators France regularly out performs the UK.
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    It would eliminate the insane hoop-jumping system we have in place here, which only inflates every successive admission cycle - of needing higher grades, more work experience, more voluntary experience, more DofE metal awards, saving more African orphans - which makes medicine a lot more inaccessible for students who come from backgrounds who cannot afford those opportunities.
    A good intention. However
    a) We already have hugely expensive external courses and online MCQ banks which many med students resort to using before finals. With that kind of competition these would be even more prominent - it would not eliminate the equality problem. What we need are more uniform work experience programs, better education for schools about how to apply to medicine, and generally better equality within our schools (the last one is hopeful, but the former 2 eminently achievable).
    b) You're wanting to fund some additional 14,000 students or so for a year of university that will lead to nothing? I thought you were arguing medical education was too inefficient earlier!
    What's wrong with pre-university admissions tests?
    c) Everyone will just hate it and the negative culture you're creating is just detestable. Probably best to not demoralise your workforce before they've even started.

    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    However, far from it, we are very lucky as a country compared to the 57 or so other countries in the world who are really suffering from a healthcare workforce crisis, partly due to the brain-drain we have created.
    Wholeheartedly agree.

    I am not against increasing medical spaces and changing the admission system since it's been shown that academic achievement at secondary school has very little correlation to results at university.
    Source please.

    Here is a paper that argues that pre-university qualification is a substantial reason we see such huge differences in postgraduate exam results dependent on what med school you went to.
    http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com.../1741-7015-6-5

    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    their healthcare system is certainly doing something right: on a number of different crude health system indicators France regularly out performs the UK.
    I'd argue the money put in - some 15% higher than the UK - might also be a contributing factor.
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    (Original post by Billy_Boi)
    I understand fully well what you are saying but I'm not even saying that people with lower grades should be given places, the reason I asked the question in the first place is because so many people with AAA or even A*AA have been rejected for medicine and it worries me because I want to apply as well.
    Getting A*AA is pretty easy though
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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    Getting A*AA is pretty easy though
    That's what I'm telling myself lol, but in reality it's p. tough.

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    I think another factor is that more doctors are deciding to take time out from their training (especially after F2) than they used to. Think this will become an even bigger issue once the new contract is imposed. There are numerous training posts all over the county that are just not being filled.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    That's what I'm telling myself lol, but in reality it's p. tough.

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    Loads of folk can get that. You don't need to be especially academically able. So it's not really a good enough discriminator by itself for medicine applications
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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    Getting A*AA is pretty easy though
    In what way? I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just wondering how those grades are easy to get?
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    (Original post by Billy_Boi)
    In what way? I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just wondering how those grades are easy to get?
    You've got to remember the perspectives you're speaking from

    You're in school. The number of A level students who get A*s is reasonably small - only 8% of A level grades awarded are A*s. Getting one will put you straight near the top of your year.

    In medical school, everyone and their dog has A*s at level. You completely lose the sense that that level of achievement is in any way impressive, and your bar very quickly gets set to a whole new level. A levels aren't quite 'easy', but I would agree that A*s don't require remarkable academic ability
 
 
 
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