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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    I understand

    Biological altruism certainly exists - adoption of orphans, for example. It means decreasing your evolutionary fitness to increase anothers'.

    I think you are confusing it with philosophical altruism, which I too am not certain exists
    I wasn't confused; I just wasn't explicit! I recognise that biological altruism exists!
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    I am a patriotic guy. However, there needs to be a dichotomy between nationalism and patriotism.

    Patriotism is to love one's country, Nationalism is to hate all others
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    I've always seen as you cannot proud to be British as you have never contributed to the things which you are proud of. I know people who are very proud of the British Empire and I ask them how they can be proud of something they have never made any contribution or assistance to, and they can never answer that. I'm a socialist, but I cannot be proud of the NHS because I didn't help establish it. And these inventions you speak of you cannot be proud of simply because a male homo sapiens impregnated a female homo sapiens on a piece of rock and dirt we call Britain and the offspring arranged some matter into a form that did something of interest and then hundreds of solar rotations later you happen to go through the same process of impregnation and birth, and you feel a form of entitlement to take some responsibility and happiness for what that other arrangement of matter did. Furthermore, there is no reason why you cannot be proud of French or German or any other nation's inventions, but you do not call yourself French or German, only British, because you happened to be born on this piece of rock and dirt.
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    (Original post by Anon07079191)
    Further, you are British, and so am I, by nothing other than luck. I was fortunate to be born in a prosperous country and I am not proud of that fortune.
    I was born into my family by nothing other than luck. I still love my family and you probably love yours.

    I was also born into England by nothing other than luck. I love England too.
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    There are a lot of things to be proud of, but there are also a lot of things to be ashamed of, such as killing innocent people over oil, destabilising foreign governments, conquering and stealing valuable resources of poorer countries, and enslaving people because of the colour of their skin.
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    I was born into my family by nothing other than luck. I still love my family and you probably love yours.

    I was also born into England by nothing other than luck. I love England too.
    I love my family because they are good people.

    England/Britain is a place. I enjoy leaving here and I like Britain but that does not mean I am proud. Pride is derived from achievement, as per it's definition. I did not achieve anything to live in Britain and nor has Britain achieved anything that I am significantly responsible for.

    I also like other places as much as Britain, some I might even like more, but logistics make my life here easier and a better choice.
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    Instead of being proud of a single nation which mostly happens to be yours , isn't it better to be proud of what we humans have achieved in general ?
    Many other nations are/were as great as Britain today/previous century.
    What's the point in being proud of your country only?
    I'm greek but I recognise that Britain is capable of doing much more important stuff today .Although not british ,I'm more proud of western europe than of greece. I'm proud of ancient greece though , but as much as I'm proud for let's say the french revolution.
    Then I ask you what do you mean you are proud British? You are more proud of the British empire and the fact that they treated locals in such an awful way than you are of the american mission to the moon? My point is that every nation has pros and cons and being proud for only one country is like ignoring all other civilizations different than yours (not necessarily claiming that they are inferior) and instead decorating even the most ugly parts of your history and culture .
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    Patriotism can be harmless, but then again it can also be provocative and dangerous.
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    (Original post by Anon07079191)
    In this case I would argue that Islamic terrorists are not really Muslims. My understanding is that they use Islam as an excuse to do bad things.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I will retract my comment about many patriots being racists.
    It has to do with the confusion of similar but very distinct statements. I think many, if not most racists are patriots, but I highly doubt most patriots are racists. I think it also has to do with the fact that racist patriots are the ones we hear about - they tend to do horrible racist things, get themselves on the news, and explain that patriotism was why they did it.
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    (Original post by Aear)
    I've always seen as you cannot proud to be British as you have never contributed to the things which you are proud of. I know people who are very proud of the British Empire and I ask them how they can be proud of something they have never made any contribution or assistance to, and they can never answer that. I'm a socialist, but I cannot be proud of the NHS because I didn't help establish it. And these inventions you speak of you cannot be proud of simply because a male homo sapiens impregnated a female homo sapiens on a piece of rock and dirt we call Britain and the offspring arranged some matter into a form that did something of interest and then hundreds of solar rotations later you happen to go through the same process of impregnation and birth, and you feel a form of entitlement to take some responsibility and happiness for what that other arrangement of matter did. Furthermore, there is no reason why you cannot be proud of French or German or any other nation's inventions, but you do not call yourself French or German, only British, because you happened to be born on this piece of rock and dirt.
    Would you like the idea of a global country or even a United States of Europe (for beginning) ?
    Don't you think that as a human race we should unite so that we can do something greater than what we do seperated?
    Of course humanity would be so immature for that right now , but it must be in our future plans, right?
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    Patriotism can be harmless, but then again it can also be provocative and dangerous.
    And then again, it could also be beneficial. A sense of duty seems extremely lacking in the younger generations.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    And then again, it could also be beneficial. A sense of duty seems extremely lacking in the younger generations.
    Perhaps. Perhaps you could make an argument that it was beneficial during the second world war. But by the same strength, it can cause division, ignorance, discrimination, and so on. It;s a double edged sword.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    Perhaps. Perhaps you could make an argument that it was beneficial during the second world war. But by the same strength, it can cause division, ignorance, discrimination, and so on. It;s a double edged sword.
    Yes. I can't think of anything which isn't a double edged sword. Although how does civic pride cause ignorance?
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    I don't care if people are patriotic, it's their right.

    I just don't understand it. Nearly everyone loves his/her country, including me but I don't understand why we are encouraged to be "proud" of it. I am proud of my own achievements, not of things that I have had since birth and did nothing to accomplish.

    My opinion is that these things can (but do not always) just create more division.
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    Nothing wrong with being passionate about the greatest country on earth.

    I even defend the empire most of the time in debates. Without the British the world would be incredibly different.
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    (Original post by Vesniep)
    Would you like the idea of a global country or even a United States of Europe (for beginning) ?
    Don't you think that as a human race we should unite so that we can do something greater than what we do seperated?
    Of course humanity would be so immature for that right now , but it must be in our future plans, right?
    I adore the concepts of a United Europe or even a United World. It would do so much to abolish the idea of nationality that does nothing to unite us and everything to divide us. Socialism cherishes the idea of humanity cooperating with itself to produce a world where everyone is happy, as opposed to a capitalist system which would rather gain profit than spread smiles. Pride in one's country I find a strange concept, illogical, and founded from tradition over reason.
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    (Original post by Aear)
    I adore the concepts of a United Europe or even a United World. It would do so much to abolish the idea of nationality that does nothing to unite us and everything to divide us. Socialism cherishes the idea of humanity cooperating with itself to produce a world where everyone is happy, as opposed to a capitalist system which would rather gain profit than spread smiles. Pride in one's country I find a strange concept, illogical, and founded from tradition over reason.
    Do you think that union of all countries => end of capitalism ?
    I'm not sure how functional socialism would be in order to replace capitalism .
    Anyway I'm glad that other people although few share my beliefs
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    (Original post by Vesniep)
    Do you think that union of all countries => end of capitalism ?
    I'm not sure how functional socialism would be in order to replace capitalism .
    Anyway I'm glad that other people although few share my beliefs
    I'd say it's the reverse. Capitalism's irreconcilable attack on the environment will kill it, and socialism will rise to take its place as governments are forced to take action in place of perpetual capitalist failure. Socialism spreading means the governments cooperate far more, and gradually, I hope, this leads to a global union coming into existence, possibly under the United Nations.
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    Personally I have quite a deep sense of disdain for people who smirk at those who take pride in their country and national identity, particularly the ones who think they're operating on some higher, emotionless, logical plane from everyone else.
    (Original post by WBZ144)
    Nearly everyone loves his/her country, including me but I don't understand why we are encouraged to be "proud" of it. I am proud of my own achievements, not of things that I have had since birth and did nothing to accomplish.
    This is a very particular definition of 'pride'. I don't think being 'patriotic' requires one to take personal credit for anything you haven't personally done. You can still recognise the good things about your country and embrace your identity as part of it.
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    (Original post by Aear)
    I adore the concepts of a United Europe or even a United World. It would do so much to abolish the idea of nationality that does nothing to unite us and everything to divide us. Socialism cherishes the idea of humanity cooperating with itself to produce a world where everyone is happy, as opposed to a capitalist system which would rather gain profit than spread smiles. Pride in one's country I find a strange concept, illogical, and founded from tradition over reason.
    This is the most cancerous idea I've ever read.

    **** your socialism, chances are you're using devices that wouldn't be around if it wasn't for capitalism. I don't want my families taxes going to the unemployed, unmotivated, incompetent poor.

    Pride in ones country is natural and should be encouraged.

    No way everyone could live harmoniously together. Too many differences keeping us apart. There's different classes of people not just 'one race muh human race'.

    Read a book NWO shill
 
 
 
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