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The real reason Tory and Labour politicians want us to remain in the EU Watch

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    Comedy_Gold


    This guy sums it up pretty nicely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIjfyGIO4xA
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I think the Scandinavian countries have the right balance
    Perhaps, but I do think their welfare system (linkedin to the 'Nordic Model') is a bit too extensive.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Perhaps, but I do think their welfare system (linkedin to the 'Nordic Model' is a bit too extensive.
    In what way?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    In what way?
    Let's look at 'Public Spending as a Percentage of GDP' in Sweden: Between 1980 and 2014, the percentage has remained around the 25% mark (stats.oecd.org). GDP, however, has more than doubled during the same period (world bank stats). I grant that a more detailed analysis is necessary, but I do believe this is enough to show that public spending (in absolute terms) has increased significantly and that's a worrying prospect.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Let's look at 'Public Spending as a Percentage of GDP' in Sweden: Between 1980 and 2014, the percentage has remained around the 25% mark (stats.oecd.org). GDP, however, has more than doubled during the same period (world bank stats). I grant that a more detailed analysis is necessary, but I do believe this is enough to show that public spending (in absolute terms) has increased significantly and that's a worrying prospect.
    You forgot inflation.
    According to statistic sweden, Swedish price of consumer goods and services has been 315% more compared to 1980. And its GDP per capita has been changed from $16,855 to $56,882 (337%, at current US dollars) during this period. So, yeah actually there hasn't been much economic growth for the past 35 years there.

    And I also doubt if Nordic model is effective and sustainable. Apart from Norway, there aren't huge differences between UK and other Nordic countries' economic standards. And Norway's economic structure is heavily depending on natural resources just like European version of Qatar (34% of total exports are crude petroleum and 25% of them are petroleum gases). UK's natural resource exports are only 11-12% of its total exports, and British oil and gas production has been steadily falling since 1999 because of running out of North sea oil resources.

    The only Nordic country without oil and gas is Finland which has had a bad economic depression since 2008. There will be even more elder people and less working generation (which means more tax and/or inflation on working families in near future). They don't look very hopeful, at least from my point of view .
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    (Original post by RussellG)
    You forgot inflation.
    According to statistic sweden, Swedish price of consumer goods and services has been 315% more compared to 1980. And its GDP per capita has been changed from $16,855 to $56,882 (337%, at current US dollars) during this period. So, yeah actually there hasn't been much economic growth for the past 35 years there.

    And I also doubt if Nordic model is effective and sustainable. Apart from Norway, there aren't huge differences between UK and other Nordic countries' economic standards. And Norway's economic structure is heavily depending on natural resources just like European version of Qatar (34% of total exports are crude petroleum and 25% of them are petroleum gases). UK's natural resource exports are only 11-12% of its total exports, and British oil and gas production has been steadily falling since 1999 because of running out of North sea oil resources.

    The only Nordic country without oil and gas is Finland which has had a bad economic depression since 2008. There will be even more elder people and less working generation (which means more tax and/or inflation on working families in near future). They don't look very hopeful, at least from my point of view .
    Precisely why I suggested further analysis is important. But I grant your point.
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    Right on cue at the request of Cameron, over pops Obama as part of Project Fear to come out with the most hypocritical garbage ever heard from a US President. For their own self-interest and to help Cameron he has been advised to say we will be at the back of the queue for business if we leave.

    If he took a proposal to the American people that their rights were being given to a foreign body who dont directly represent them and their Supreme Court was going to be overruled by another court there would be a revolution back in the States. Totally laughable but the sad thing is most of the British Public wont suspect a thing re motivations.

    The BBC are pushing this story relentlessly to reach as many of that public as possible as their bias and propoganda is disgusting on the EU debate.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    CHEAP LABOUR
    I don't say that you are 100% wrong on this, but I think you have too much of a conspiracy theory going on to be taken completely seriously. One of the principles of the EU is free movement of labour/people - the reason for this is that it helps fulfil demand for labour throughout the EU if people in low demand areas can move to high demand areas.

    Clearly this has the potential to increase competition and depress wages.

    However, at the same time the UK, over an extended period, has artificially depressed wages by subsidising them with benefit top-ups. The affect of this is that many people cannot survive on minimum wage, and thus have their incomes inflated with various benefits. It is difficult to discern which effect is stronger, the movement of labour, or state-based subsidies - I suspect it is the latter, because that is something that has direct and immediate affect on the policies of employers (and I don't really buy into your conspiracy theory).
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    I don't say that you are 100% wrong on this, but I think you have too much of a conspiracy theory going on to be taken completely seriously. One of the principles of the EU is free movement of labour/people - the reason for this is that it helps fulfil demand for labour throughout the EU if people in low demand areas can move to high demand areas.

    Clearly this has the potential to increase competition and depress wages.

    However, at the same time the UK, over an extended period, has artificially depressed wages by subsidising them with benefit top-ups. The affect of this is that many people cannot survive on minimum wage, and thus have their incomes inflated with various benefits. It is difficult to discern which effect is stronger, the movement of labour, or state-based subsidies - I suspect it is the latter, because that is something that has direct and immediate affect on the policies of employers (and I don't really buy into your conspiracy theory).
    It really isnt a conspiracy theory. I have been directly affected by this. The whole development team i worked in were laid off and the work moved to India for the companies financial gain in lower wages. You see wage depression isnt only caused by bringing cheap labour (for the same skill level) here, it is also caused by moving work offshore. Developers were also brought onshore not due to a lack of uk skills, it was because they could hire 3 or 4 of them for the price of one of us. Employers are brutal these days, wages are a major source of profit and the government and the EU are helping companies also achieve the same goals with EU immigration in large numbers. I mean who do you think pays into Tory and Labour party funds, Father Christmas or multinationals expecting something in return?
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    The labour from the EU is increasingly more skilled and expensive, inbefore Balkans and Ukraine.
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    (Original post by William Pitt)
    The labour from the EU is increasingly more skilled and expensive, inbefore Balkans and Ukraine.
    Look companies wouldnt be interested in bringing foreign workers here if they had to pay them the same as uk workers with the same skill level. Think about it. They would be worse to employ due to language and communication differences. Profit through wages overcomes this disadvantage.
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    Major tax dodging companies have always been in favor for the UK to remain within the EU. Just look at Amazon they don't pay tax, they take advantage of an endless supply of cheap labour to work in their delivery jobs. They ditch out ZHC and employ workers with no rights. It's no wonder then these parasites will continue to exploit British workers and open up the borders with poorer countries. Outside of the establishment and the elites you will find that remaining in the EU has no benefits whatsoever for your average working class person. Net migration from the EU is over 300,000 a year, a larger percentage of these people are on low paid jobs where their wages will be topped up with benefits. The lefties will argue that the migrants aren't claiming benefits, well who will pay for their hospital stays(Translators ? £25 an hour!! )?? School for their kids (extra language lessons/ and hiring extra English language teachers) ?? Housing??? on top of this the billions the UK pays the EU each year that money could be used to wipe off the national debt .
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    I think staying in the EU will be better for financial services though.
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    (Original post by cashcash871)
    I think staying in the EU will be better for financial services though.
    Better for bankers!!
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    (Original post by _icecream)
    Better for bankers!!
    And for any financial services professional. A lot of banks have warned against leaving the EU. I myself am looking to work in the financial sector in the future so I'll be voting to stay.
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    (Original post by cashcash871)
    And for any financial services professional. A lot of banks have warned against leaving the EU. I myself am looking to work in the financial sector in the future so I'll be voting to stay.
    And I'll be voting to leave
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    (Original post by _icecream)
    And I'll be voting to leave
    All right then. I can understand- I personally would support more sovereignty form the EU and for Britain to be more independent, but I need to able to find a job!
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    these kinds of arguments look only at the supply demand side and not the demand side
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    these kinds of arguments look only at the supply demand side and not the demand side
    It is an artificial demand to compress wages. There has been enough skilled labour here for years regardless of what you are being told by those taking advantage of wage profits by creating an imaginary demand.
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    (Original post by Comedy_Gold)
    It really isnt a conspiracy theory. I have been directly affected by this. The whole development team i worked in were laid off and the work moved to India for the companies financial gain in lower wages. You see wage depression isnt only caused by bringing cheap labour (for the same skill level) here, it is also caused by moving work offshore. Developers were also brought onshore not due to a lack of uk skills, it was because they could hire 3 or 4 of them for the price of one of us. Employers are brutal these days, wages are a major source of profit and the government and the EU are helping companies also achieve the same goals with EU immigration in large numbers. I mean who do you think pays into Tory and Labour party funds, Father Christmas or multinationals expecting something in return?
    i mean, that would have happened regardless of us being in the eu or not.
 
 
 
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