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The EU protects our interests more than our own government watch

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    A bad government, as we're seeing right now, can do huge amounts of damage in a single term. It takes decades to develop new rights, and a single election to abolish them.
    It takes decades to get enough popular support for new rights, not to actually pass the relevant legislation in Parliament. As MagicNMedicine has said above, if they do something deeply unpopular, they'll get voted out. It's disingenuous to pretend that if they repeal something that's extremely popular, it's going to take decades(/more than one term) for a different government to reinstate it. (And you've actually alluded to this in your remark about how Leave voters will be the first to cry if/when the government takes away their workers' rights.)

    5 years of extracting more fossil fuels and reducing our climate change prevention will have catastrophic and IRREPARABLE consequences economically and environmentally.
    While this has more merit than the human rights argument, it's still not good enough. First of all, if we take the projected independence date for Scotland had it voted to leave (March 2016) as a guide, we wouldn't actually leave the EU until about 18 months after a Leave vote and, given that we'll have just under four years of this Parliament left by 23 June, that's about two and a half years of being outside the EU before another general election, not five.

    Second, while any move away from renewables is irresponsible, it's a gross exaggeration to suggest that Armageddon would occur if the UK (this would be a better argument if we were talking about the United States or China) had two and a half years of little to no progress on shifting to renewable energy, and that too with the government getting hammered for any such move in the press and having to worry about PR given the upcoming change of party leadership and the general election not long after it.

    The point being: make all the economic arguments you want, but don't try to sell this nightmare scenario of an overnight transformation into an unaccountable tyranny in the event of a Leave vote. No reasonable person is likely to take that seriously.
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    (Original post by BigDazW)
    Well Iceland dont seem to have many of the *******s
    That's because they're in the middle of nowhere, there's only about 300k people there in total. Switzerland(although they're no longer an EEA member) or Norway would be more realistic examples to compare against and they both have a higher percentage of foreign born residents than we do.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Leave voters are constantly whining about the EU being "undemocratic" and how we "shouldn't be ruled by people that don't represent our interests".

    The EU gives us most of our consumer rights, workers' rights and human rights. Is anyone naive enough to believe that a Tory government would uphold those rights if they had the choice not to? They're already trying to repeal our Human Rights Act, and they'd jump at the chance to strip away more of our rights, so we'd work harder and bring them more money. The EU is the only thing stopping this, and most of the Leave voters would be the first to start crying if they lost their rights.

    The EU funds regions of the UK that the government refuses to. The European Regional Development Fund invests in projects across the country, aiming to balance regional inequality. The government is leaving half of this country to rot, while the EU is investing in business, science, environment and culture projects in the areas that need it most.

    The EU funds climate change research, protection and prevention, and introduces legislation aiming to prevent a potentially catastrophic environmental disaster (even though we're probably past the point where it can be prevented), while our own government is cutting spending on renewables and investing in new, more dangerous ways of extracting fossil fuels.

    The Leave voters don't realize that they're living in poverty because of their own government and that the EU red tape they keep *****ing about is the red tape protecting their rights as workers, because most of these people know *******s all about the EU, they just read in The Sun that it's the cause of literally every problem in their lives.

    I'd feel much safer in the hands of the EU than the government that the idiots of the British electorate vote into power.
    1) The EU does not give us human rights. The European Convention on Human Rights gives us our human rights and that's nothing to do with the EU. Regardless the Tories want to replace the human rights act with a British bill of rights which would most likely be the same as the human rights act. As for consumer rights and workers rights, a lot of these things are done at a global level with the WTO and ILO, but these rights would not disappear. Now the rights that our given to workers and consumers (eg equal pay) would be absorbed into UK law upon us leaving if we were to leave. Our government would then be free to repeal them if they so wished. The great things about this is that our parliament and our politicians are farm our accountable to the voters than European politicians. If the Tories started doing too many things the public didn't like, they would be voted out.

    2) As a country we are actually doing a lot better when it comes to the environment. Let's also not forget that the EU pushed the use of diesel which is much worse for air pollution than petrol and has most likely contributed to a large amount of deaths.

    3) It's estimated that EU regulations cost us about 7% of GDP. Of course it's not desirable nor feasible to remove all of these regulations, but I'm sure removing a few would be very useful. If we left we would remove/add regulations that we fit our own needs. For example we don't want an agricultural policy that suits the needs of French and Spanish farmers, we want an agricultural policy that suits British farmers.

    Oh and the reason why some of the leave voters are in poverty is because of the government. That's why the government needs to do much less
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Sorry, what? When an EU citizen receives free healthcare on the NHS, their government pays for that healthcare.
    Still when a UK citizen receives healthcare in another EU country they have to pay insurance in order to receive it there. Whereas an EU citizen who's only been in the country for days gets all free health care for free.
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    I think we should recognise that the EU does provide a minimum level of employment protection (number of days holiday- our 28 is the 20 days plus bank holidays), has ensured that ageism is treated seriously as an issue, has raised environmental standards, and the EU arrest warrant has ended the Costa del Crime that existed in the 1980s. Aside from the other benefits such as Regional Development Funds that have meant that former industrial and mining areas have suffered less than they would otherwise have done.

    I do not trust that a Conservative government would not erode these, even if gradually (allowing people to 'opt out' who employers would effectively give no choice to, at least when hiring).
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    I think we should recognise that the EU does provide a minimum level of employment protection (number of days holiday- our 28 is the 20 days plus bank holidays), has ensured that ageism is treated seriously as an issue, has raised environmental standards, and the EU arrest warrant has ended the Costa del Crime that existed in the 1980s. Aside from the other benefits such as Regional Development Funds that have meant that former industrial and mining areas have suffered less than they would otherwise have done.

    I do not trust that a Conservative government would not erode these, even if gradually (allowing people to 'opt out' who employers would effectively give no choice to, at least when hiring).
    It's already the case in some places with the working time opt out.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Leave voters are constantly whining about the EU being "undemocratic" and how we "shouldn't be ruled by people that don't represent our interests".

    The EU gives us most of our consumer rights, workers' rights and human rights. Is anyone naive enough to believe that a Tory government would uphold those rights if they had the choice not to? They're already trying to repeal our Human Rights Act, and they'd jump at the chance to strip away more of our rights, so we'd work harder and bring them more money. The EU is the only thing stopping this, and most of the Leave voters would be the first to start crying if they lost their rights.

    The EU funds regions of the UK that the government refuses to. The European Regional Development Fund invests in projects across the country, aiming to balance regional inequality. The government is leaving half of this country to rot, while the EU is investing in business, science, environment and culture projects in the areas that need it most.

    The EU funds climate change research, protection and prevention, and introduces legislation aiming to prevent a potentially catastrophic environmental disaster (even though we're probably past the point where it can be prevented), while our own government is cutting spending on renewables and investing in new, more dangerous ways of extracting fossil fuels.

    The Leave voters don't realize that they're living in poverty because of their own government and that the EU red tape they keep *****ing about is the red tape protecting their rights as workers, because most of these people know *******s all about the EU, they just read in The Sun that it's the cause of literally every problem in their lives.

    I'd feel much safer in the hands of the EU than the government that the idiots of the British electorate vote into power.
    Basically, democracy sucks. Its better to have unelected leaders in power (Whom change as do their rules btw) than a democratically elected government who can be and will be removed should they try repealing the above things you mentioned...

    Not myopic in the slightest there mate
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Sorry, what? When an EU citizen receives free healthcare on the NHS, their government pays for that healthcare.
    The UK only manages to get back £1 in every £15 from EU citizens using the NHS. £400 million a year was the debt it cost us

    You really do live in la la land
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Basically, democracy sucks. Its better to have unelected leaders in power (Whom change as do their rules btw) than a democratically elected government who can be and will be removed should they try repealing the above things you mentioned...

    Not myopic in the slightest there mate
    We can remove ourselves from the EU if they start acting against our interests. It's an entirely different situation to having an unelected government.

    That said, democracy does have its flaws.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    We can remove ourselves from the EU if they start acting against our interests. It's an entirely different situation to having an unelected government.

    That said, democracy does have its flaws.
    And what is our interests? Who is "our"? Politicians?? Who want to line their pockets and get a comfy easy seat as part of the EU on a £250k a year + extras?

    They're interests are often polar opposites to the average person. Having them being directly accountable is crucial, otherwise you cannot remove them when they propose to gang bang your wife
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    The UK only manages to get back £1 in every £15 from EU citizens using the NHS. £400 million a year was the debt it cost us

    You really do live in la la land
    The NHS spends that in a day and a quarter. It's absolutely negligible. It's also the result of our government not properly claiming that money back, it has nothing to do with the EU.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    And what is our interests? Who is "our"? Politicians?? Who want to line their pockets and get a comfy easy seat as part of the EU on a £250k a year + extras?

    They're interests are often polar opposites to the average person. Having them being directly accountable is crucial, otherwise you cannot remove them when they propose to gang bang your wife
    So the average person doesn't benefit from consumer rights (mandatory refund period, etc.)? They don't benefit from health and safety or employment rights? They don't benefit from environmental protection? They don't benefit from investment in the poorest regions?

    The average person benefits more than anyone from most EU legislation.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The NHS spends that in a day and a quarter. It's absolutely negligible. It's also the result of our government not properly claiming that money back, it has nothing to do with the EU.
    Yes i know its to do with us not claiming it back. The point im making is you are living in la la land by saying we claim it back from EU countries. WE DONT. Sure its not theyre fault we dont bill them but its the same damn result. Our system, our taxpayers funding the international health service.

    £400m is not neglible. Sure in comparison to overall NHS bill its not a lot but it is still not an amount to be sniffed at
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    So the average person doesn't benefit from consumer rights (mandatory refund period, etc.)? They don't benefit from health and safety or employment rights? They don't benefit from environmental protection? They don't benefit from investment in the poorest regions?

    The average person benefits more than anyone from most EU legislation.
    Some people benefit some don't. The important thing is to be able to elect or reject people with these proposals. I remember a particularly funny time in January during the flooding when a politician on twitter launched a questioning tweet at the major of some town that was flooded asking why on earth the rivers hadn't been dredged... The majors reply...

    "Its against EU regulations, we weren't allowed to do it"

    It was a pretty remarkable exchange which could not have better highlighted why unelected ignorant idealists should not be getting paid obscene amounts to sit around in 5* hotels across Europe making up idealistic one size fits all regulations for nearly an entire continent.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    Yeah I mean like Einstein TOTALLY did his research with the help of the EU
    You cannot compare the research environment of the early 20th Century to research today. It makes absolutely no sense. EU membership is undeniably positive for UK science, do you seriously think there's unanimous support for EU membership amongst UK universities just for a joke?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Yes i know its to do with us not claiming it back. The point im making is you are living in la la land by saying we claim it back from EU countries. WE DONT. Sure its not theyre fault we dont bill them but its the same damn result. Our system, our taxpayers funding the international health service.

    £400m is not neglible. Sure in comparison to overall NHS bill its not a lot but it is still not an amount to be sniffed at
    Fair enough, I'll concede that we don't claim it back. But that's still a problem with our government. It can be solved fairly easily without leaving the EU.


    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Some people benefit some don't. The important thing is to be able to elect or reject people with these proposals. I remember a particularly funny time in January during the flooding when a politician on twitter launched a questioning tweet at the major of some town that was flooded asking why on earth the rivers hadn't been dredged... The majors reply...

    "Its against EU regulations, we weren't allowed to do it"

    It was a pretty remarkable exchange which could not have better highlighted why unelected ignorant idealists should not be getting paid obscene amounts to sit around in 5* hotels across Europe making up idealistic one size fits all regulations for nearly an entire continent.
    Dredging is often ineffective and damages wildlife. There are other ways to defend against floods (the EU offered to pay for British flood defences - I'm fairly sure David Cameron turned them down?)
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    You cannot compare the research environment of the early 20th Century to research today. It makes absolutely no sense. EU membership is undeniably positive for UK science, do you seriously think there's unanimous support for EU membership amongst UK universities just for a joke?
    UK universities are full of ****. Just like Obama, and LSE, and the IMF, and Richard Branson are all full of ****. Nigel Farage said so!
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Fair enough, I'll concede that we don't claim it back. But that's still a problem with our government. It can be solved fairly easily without leaving the EU.




    Dredging is often ineffective and damages wildlife. There are other ways to defend against floods (the EU offered to pay for British flood defences - I'm fairly sure David Cameron turned them down?)
    Im not a dredging expert myself so wont contest your claims but my point is some people benefit, some dont. I wasnt effected by the floods and lack of dredging and get to enjoy the supposed enviromental benefits, That young married couple who's house got destroyed and lives turned upside down might not be such benefactors of EU enviromental laws
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Yeah, services in the UK are struggling because funding is being cut and cut and cut. That problem is going to get worse regardless of immigration because people voted for a government that cuts spending and cuts taxes. If you want the NHS to do better, you'd find far more success by voting for a better government, rather than voting to kick out immigrants that bring in money and alienate ourselves from our biggest export market in the process.



    No, it's not absurd at all. The EU holds our government accountable. A bad government, as we're seeing right now, can do huge amounts of damage in a single term. It takes decades to develop new rights, and a single election to abolish them. 5 years of extracting more fossil fuels and reducing our climate change prevention will have catastrophic and IRREPARABLE consequences economically and environmentally.
    Firstly, it is the British electorate's role to keep a British government accountable, not the EU. You're imposing a standard of accountability that is neither accepted or understood by the people of this country. Neither the British government nor the British people or any British body can hold EU institutions like the Commission or the ECJ to account. What you call 'damage' is actually what the people of this country elected the government to do, the thing is that you happen to disagree with certain Conservative policies, that's your problem. You might not have much respect for British democracy but there are many people in this country who do.
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    Chemical physicist, right here! Reporting for debunking duty.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The EU funds regions of the UK that the government refuses to. The European Regional Development Fund invests in projects across the country, aiming to balance regional inequality. The government is leaving half of this country to rot, while the EU is investing in business, science, environment and culture projects in the areas that need it most.
    Okay first I'm going to need you to provide a credible source. At present you're only making biased (and rather ignorant) assertions which hold no academic value whatsoever without evidence.

    Next, I should point out that the majority of funding for research doesn't come from any government institutions, it comes from private companies. I should also point out that the EU is actually crippling the ability of researchers to do their research by cutting funding by ridiculous amounts each year. The whole scientific community is in uproar over it. Without research the number of deaths each year due to superbugs and other medication resistant pathogens soars (as well as those from ordinary pathogens), the economy plummets as new technologies aren't being produced to support the consumer market, the quality of life plummets too, as well as so much more. If we remain in the EU, the severity of the damage done to our research institutions could drag us back into the great depression in a decade or less.
    http://www.nature.com/news/a-call-to...cience-1.16086

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The EU funds climate change research, protection and prevention, and introduces legislation aiming to prevent a potentially catastrophic environmental disaster (even though we're probably past the point where it can be prevented), while our own government is cutting spending on renewables and investing in new, more dangerous ways of extracting fossil fuels.
    Yea, that's why they're funding the building of the world's biggest wind farm just off the Yorkshire coast. :facepalm2:

    As I pointed out above, the EU is killing research not funding it. And stop spouting out that armageddon fearmongery. Global climate fluctuations are natural and not yet well understood by scientists. Governments have used inconclusive evidence (with lots of contradicting evidence which they've ignored) as a fear technique. It's ridiculous.
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...00/ast20oct_1/

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The Leave voters don't realize that they're living in poverty because of their own government and that the EU red tape they keep *****ing about is the red tape protecting their rights as workers, because most of these people know *******s all about the EU, they just read in The Sun that it's the cause of literally every problem in their lives.
    Again, source?

    In fact everyone benefits from a growing economy - which is exactly what the Tories have created. They took the country from near bankruptcy (caused by idiot leftists, aka Labor) and turned the whole economic situation around. As a result everyone in Britain is better off than they were under Labor. The Tories have actually made everyone richer.

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    I'd feel much safer in the hands of the EU than the government that the idiots of the British electorate vote into power.
    Yea, the idiots like me who have to sit and watch as the EU drags the whole continent back into the dark ages by cutting short our research. Oh and since you're British as well, you just shot yourself in the foot by saying that! :teehee:

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Yeah, services in the UK are struggling because funding is being cut and cut and cut. That problem is going to get worse regardless of immigration because people voted for a government that cuts spending and cuts taxes. If you want the NHS to do better, you'd find far more success by voting for a better government, rather than voting to kick out immigrants that bring in money and alienate ourselves from our biggest export market in the process.



    No, it's not absurd at all. The EU holds our government accountable. A bad government, as we're seeing right now, can do huge amounts of damage in a single term. It takes decades to develop new rights, and a single election to abolish them. 5 years of extracting more fossil fuels and reducing our climate change prevention will have catastrophic and IRREPARABLE consequences economically and environmentally.
    Like I said, enough of the fearmongery! You clearly know absolutely nothing of what goes on in politics or in the Earth's atmosphere. It'd be best if you just left this to people who know what they're talking about, because everything you've said so far is utter tripe.

    I should point out to everyone that because the EU is decreasing our ability to do research, remaining in the EU will not only be catastrophic for political and economic reasons, but will also severely damage our future economy and living standards. If you care about the future of humanity as a whole (a future which depends entirely on science and research), you should vote to leave. Research that is done in the UK helps millions worldwide to overcome diseases and poverty, yet the EU is tightening the noose on our ability to do this research. In effect, the EU is paving the way for future generations to suffer.
 
 
 
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