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Who is voting Leave for the BREXIT elections? watch

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    (Original post by HOLA255)
    The Borders, our laws for controlling the economy and immigration. Romanian and East European EU migrants in London, homeless East Europeans begging on streets, gypsies living in squalor and eating swans in London's Royal Parks.
    Only I can do that!

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    I for one will be voting in. Over the last couple of weeks I've been reading more articles which are worldwide (e.g. the economist) to see what the views of other EU citizens outside the UK are. And to be frank, I'm almost embarrassed. The number of parallels that can be drawn to the Scottish referendum last year are laughable. And the funny thing is, it is those who were telling Scotland they were too small and insignificant who are the ones now voting out.
    It's made me realise the out voters sound to Europeans exactly how the leave voters sounded in the Scottish referendum; dismissive, rude, looking for someone else to blame, letting national pride overrule rationality.
    "let's take back control from the bureaucrats in Brussels", "let's take back control from the Westminster elite"
    "We are ruled by those in Brussels who we didn't vote", "years of voting Labour, always getting Tory."
    "We want control of our border (i.e. we want special status within the EU)", "we want control of our taxes/public spending (i.e. we want special status within the UK)"
    "It's ok, our financial sector is the best in Europe and will prop us up", "It's ok, we have North Sea oil that will make us loads of money"
    "It's ok, we'll trade with the commonwealth instead", "it's Ok we'll join the EU instead and trade with them"
    "The EU thinks we can't survive without us, thinks we NEED them, it's them who NEED us", "the UK, they think we NEED them, well it's them who NEEDS us"

    I sat there laughing at Scotland, wondering who the **** they were kidding, almost hoping they'd leave so they'd see how ****ed they are. Do you know what the top comments on articles on the EU are right now? "I'm sick of the UK moaning and asking for special status. I wish'd they just leave so they can stop blaming us". We are becoming what I hate most, a country full of whiny, moany little *****es who think everything is someone else's fault. And irrespective of the result, it's highly likely that we'll be left in the same situation as the Scots were after the referendum; with over 40% of their own people unhappy the vote didn't go their way, and their closest allies sick to death of them.
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    Voting in. I live in Scotland, Scotland and much of Northern England is still contains many large export based economies which would be decimated in the event of an exit vote. I also am not too fond of the Norwegian style pricing for any kind of imported goods such as food and drink as I believe the UK simply does not have the wages to counter that.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    The Brexit campaign has been using fear tactics just as much as the Remain campaign, this whole "project fear" victim-playing of the Brexit campaign is so hypocritical.
    Project fear has been used on both sides, did I dispute that? No, so stop moaning. The fact is the leader of the in campaign has not said one good thing for staying in the EU, I am yet to hear something good
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Project fear has been used on both sides, did I dispute that? No, so stop moaning. The fact is the leader of the in campaign has not said one good thing for staying in the EU, I am yet to hear something good
    Yes that is true. But project fear always has the home field advantage when campaigning for the status quo. Its much easier to get folks to fear change than to fear what they already have and thus the status quo campaigners tend to make much more extensive use of fear than advocates of change.
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    I'm leaning towards in. Simply down to countries like Norway and Switzerland, countries which are outside of the EU, yet seem to have little control of their borders when it comes to migrants (taking in FAR MORE than us), still have freedom of movement agreements with the EU, and most importantly, THEY STILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH EU LAWS.

    I'll admit, I'm not a huge fan of the EU itself, but I'd rather the country have a voice in the EU like we do now, instead of having no voice in the EU like Norway and Switzerland.
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    I'll be voting leave


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    I'll be voting in.

    I see no major benefit to leaving and my prospects for the future will be greater staying in.
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    (Original post by HOLA255)
    Attachment 525887
    I am voting leave, let's take back the control.
    Attachment 525891
    Attachment 525893
    Attachment 525893
    Yeah let's take back control to destroy workers rights and have dangerously unsafe places of work!!!!

    Control!!
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Maybe. My worry is that we have one shot at this. If it looks like the European project is heading towards deeper integration we need to consider whether we want to be part of that.
    We don't have one shot on this. We can leave at any time via a simple act of Parliament.
    A referendum is not a legal requirement.

    On the other hand it's unlikely we'd be allowed back in so easily if we did leave and came to regret it.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We don't have one shot on this. We can leave at any time via a simple act of Parliament.
    A referendum is not a legal requirement.

    On the other hand it's unlikely we'd be allowed back in so easily if we did leave and came to regret it.
    You know it doesn't work like that. It would take very extreme circumstances to get us out of the EU without a referendum, and it takes a long time to get one of those.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    You know it doesn't work like that. It would take very extreme circumstances to get us out of the EU without a referendum, and it takes a long time to get one of those.
    Politically possibly but not legally. Say remain wins and a eurosceptic becomes leader of Tories, they could put withdrawal from the European Union in their manifesto.
    But that's more likely than if we left and wanted to rejoin. Leaving is a far more definitive position than staying. Whether to leave is in our hands, to rejoin would be totally out of our hands.

    Which makes it important that a really solid argument is put forward for leaving, giving details of what we'd look like outside the European Union but it's all just been so wonderfully abstract thus far. We're not interesting in abstract and nationalist concepts, we want to hear real answers about which deals we'd sign, who we'd sign them and what the terms would be etc. Not asking for exact definitions but just a general idea, which has been sorely lacking.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Politically possibly but not legally. Say remain wins and a eurosceptic becomes leader of Tories, they could put withdrawal from the European Union in their manifesto.
    But that's more likely than if we left and wanted to rejoin. Leaving is a far more definitive position than staying. Whether to leave is in our hands, to rejoin would be totally out of our hands.

    Which makes it important that a really solid argument is put forward for leaving, giving details of what we'd look like outside the European Union but it's all just been so wonderfully abstract thus far. We're not interesting in abstract and nationalist concepts, we want to hear real answers about which deals we'd sign, who we'd sign them and what the terms would be etc. Not asking for exact definitions but just a general idea, which has been sorely lacking.
    It's actually not how it works legally either. An Act of Parliament would not affect our treaty obligations to the EU in itself. Politically, however, is what matters. If it would not be politically possible to extricate ourselves from an EU that is dragging us into further integration for a long period, that is a very relevant concern for those of us who do not want to be part of such a body.

    I think hoping for a concrete plan before we've entered the negotiation is unrealistic, which is certainly a disadvantage for the leave campaign.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    It's actually not how it works legally either. An Act of Parliament would not affect our treaty obligations to the EU in itself. Politically, however, is what matters. If it would not be politically possible to extricate ourselves from an EU that is dragging us into further integration for a long period, that is a very relevant concern for those of us who do not want to be part of such a body.

    I think hoping for a concrete plan before we've entered the negotiation is unrealistic, which is certainly a disadvantage for the leave campaign.
    We have a common law system, where treaties only have domestic effect if they are ratified in national law via an act of Parliament. If parliament chose to legislate to leave we would leave. Eu law would have no impact on our law. We may be in breach of our international obligations but we can still leave via an act of Parliament.

    I agree there cannot be a concrete plan but we do need as detailed a plan as possible, but there has been nothing close to that.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We have a common law system, where treaties only have domestic effect if they are ratified in national law via an act of Parliament. If parliament chose to legislate to leave we would leave. We may be in breach of our international obligations but we can still leave via an act of Parliament.

    I agree there cannot be a concrete plan but we do need as detailed a plan as possible, but there has been nothing close to that.
    I would argue that European Union 'membership' exists on the international law plane, which logically cannot be affected by domestic legislation. You are correct that Parliament could purge any trace of EU law from the domestic legal system, treaty or no, but realistically that would never happen. It's sort of like the old chestnut about outlawing smoking on the streets of Paris.

    Yes. Well, I agree with you, and this is largely why I haven't declared for leave.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    I would argue that European Union 'membership' exists on the international law plane, which logically cannot be affected by domestic legislation. You are correct that Parliament could purge any trace of EU law from the domestic legal system, treaty or no, but realistically that would never happen. It's sort of like the old chestnut about outlawing smoking on the streets of Paris.

    Yes. Well, I agree with you, and this is largely why I haven't declared for leave.
    It's an interesting legal question for sure.
    Whilst eu exists on an international plane it has domestic effects like open borders, supremacy of EU law etc. If we legislated to leave the European Union could not really do anything to stop us. Their only option would be to take us to the icj but we could refuse.

    But you are right that politically it won't happen. I guess point I was trying to make is that whilst it is very unlikely that we will leave in the future of we vote stay, that it is even more unlikely than ever being able to rejoin if leave now.
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Anyone who thinks we will leave the EU needs to get their heads tested. The question they should be asking is how much of the vote the out campaign will get, that is what I'm more concerned about. It will be interesting to see how many value the UK over Brussels
    Confusing but okay.

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    (Original post by HOLA255)
    Follow the News and get with the Program missy. Give the Candy Crusher games a break.
    What news? The Daily Mail? I highly doubt you've done any actual research whatsoever. Tabloids don't count as "news".
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Project fear has been used on both sides, did I dispute that? No, so stop moaning. The fact is the leader of the in campaign has not said one good thing for staying in the EU, I am yet to hear something good
    Maybe you're going deaf, then. There are vast economic benefits from the EU, 50% of our exports go to them. Immigrants from the EU are more educated than the British public. The EU invests in poorer regions of the country. The EU distributes research funding to where it can do the most good. EU laws and rights are incredibly progressive.

    There's a list of good things about the EU. Do you want me to give you more?
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Anyone who thinks we will leave the EU needs to get their heads tested. The question they should be asking is how much of the vote the out campaign will get, that is what I'm more concerned about. It will be interesting to see how many value the UK over Brussels
    PRSOM.
 
 
 
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