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Out voters call everything they don't like "project fear" Watch

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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Both sides are doing it.

    The biggest problem with this entire issue is nobody knows. Everybody's guessing.

    Inners are saying "oh, if we leave, x will happen" - but they don't know. They're guessing. Nobody knows what will happen because nobody's done it before.

    Outers are then saying "if we stay, x will happen" - but they don't know either.

    Both sides are full of it. That's what OP fails to even recognise, let alone acknowledge.

    Anybody saying they have definitive answers is lying out of their backside. That's why I think OP is a prize goon.
    I haven't heard a single Remainer say it, and what's more, they can say with some authority that 'x' will happen as they have a wide range of international organisations coming up with assessments that indicate as such, from HM Treasury to the OECD and more.

    There are some on the other side, true, but nowhere near as prestigious, authoritative and widespread. Hell, I've even seen some Brexiters suggest the OECD is in the 'pay' of the EU.

    With respect, I don't think it's remotely possible to equate the conduct of Remain with the tin-hatted battiness coming from Leave.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    I guess it may be because of the side of the fence I am on, but you have to admit, surely, that the majority of utterly whacko claims has come from the Brexit side? And that they seem particularly prone to aggression and denial?
    Without denying that many of the claims made by Leave supporters/campaigners are obvious bulls--t, I think you may want to acquaint yourself with the OP's zealotry on this issue.

    (Original post by Drewski)
    For all you bang on (and do so ****ing endlessly) about the people on the one side, you completely and totally ignore any of the same calibre of people on the other side.

    You completely ignore all the other arguments. On the rare occasions you do engage with the opposite argument, you dismiss it out of hand.

    You don't want a debate. You don't want a discussion. You just want to spout your own views and shut down any opposing views. You're so convinced of your own correctness and intelligence that you don't even contemplate for a second that there might be a different opinion floating out there.

    You are breathtakingly arrogant and an enormous irritant.

    The worst part is, you're not even self aware enough to notice.

    You're acting like a petulant 5 year old and its really time you packed it in.
    Nail on head, PRSOM. I'll make a point of checking back to see when I can rep this.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Without denying that many of the claims made by Leave supporters/campaigners are obvious bulls--t, I think you may want to acquaint yourself with the OP's zealotry on this issue.
    Ah. I did not see that. Yeah...
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    I think the point of project fear is to emphasis that there is, of course, a short term cost to leaving the EU
    but if the UK is, then, to be able to forge its own trade deals with other countries, then surely, as a rational unit in the international system, it will maximise its flow of GDP this way over time?
    Seeing as many countries are lining up to declare a lack of interest in a post-Brexit UK as a trading partner of any note, I am unpersuaded.

    I mean, compare this long term effect to the EU: the EU itself is stagnating and has been since roughly 2008(?) and the UK doesn't negotiate the terms of trade deals (which then suggests that the UK interest is not the object of the trade deal).
    it's pretty stupid to say that the relative certainty of a short term loss from leaving means that the uncertain gain isn't very likely - just because it can't be certified that doesn't mean it is discredited. I could say "it is likely that eventually we will pay off our deficit" but, again, where's my empirical research for this claim? the point is, it's not an extraordinary claim, it's pretty self-justifiable given the factors involved. this, too, is the nature of the economic gain of leaving the EU.
    Can we reasonably call the EU's economy in trouble since 2008 'stagnating' in the long term? There's nothing really to suggest it is, beyond extrapolating long-term predictions from a (possibly) short-term situation. There may be economists predicting worse to come, but I would argue the EU will remain our main source of wealth for a long time yet. There's no rush.

    I get the feeling that this 'we can't know, it's uncertain' is like the old 'evolution is just a theory' thing. Yes, of course it's uncertain - it's prediction. But it's a prediction with a very wide, authoritative and - arguably - impartial consensus. That carries weight.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    Since when is knowing that the perpetrators of the sex attacks that come across Europe during the migrant crisis may get German citizenship if we stay in and there's a high chance they'll most probably come here and spread their disgusting culture and medieval religion scaremongering exactly? It's common sense if you want to vote out because of that reason.

    ISIS have been so so vocal about how they're planning to send in jihadis posing as refugees and somehow that's scaremongering?
    Such. Delicious. Irony.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    This **** is stupid. There's some level of uncertainty involved in leaving the EU, but whenever people (scientists, economists) make predictions, the out voters say it's wrong (because some unemployed xenophobes know more about economics than actual economists, of course) and then cry about scaremongering.

    Telling you what might happen isn't scaremongering. Is it really that difficult for you to think critically that your stupid brain shuts down whenever you're asked to evaluate some level of uncertainty? Are you only able to process facts (although, let's be honest, most of these people don't know what facts are) and having to actually think about something upsets you?

    The OECD published a study finding that the average UK household will lose £2200/year by 2020 due to an EU exit. This is an international policy organisation. Now all of these idiots are kicking off because the OECD is obviously part of a conspiracy to trick the hard-working idiots of the UK out of their money!!!! Project fear project fear!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And all of these armchair economists are chiming in between episodes of Eastenders to deliver their valuable analysis such as "they can't predict whats going to happen next week let alone in 14 years time" and other nuggets of intellectual wisdom.

    There are some horrifyingly stupid people in this country, and we shouldn't be having a referendum. How do people that never did A levels honestly, genuinely believe that their 5-second analysis (based on exactly nothing) is somehow right (or even valid), and an actual comprehensive economic study is wrong? How did we get here? Is it a problem with our education system?
    That study ignores potential growth of the UK if we left, it only assumed the worse, and it's an average so not every household would be worse of by that. Do you honestly think my father who's a carpenter will be worse of by 2200 pound a year when all the Eastern Europeans won't be able to walk in.

    It ignores that house prices would certainly deflate from less immigration, it ignores that inflation will decrease as we source our consumer goods from other markets, it's ignoring the money saved by the UK government leaving that it could use to invest in the UK economy.

    I am sure it's only assuming if we didn't access the single market and only based on current exports/imports and ignoring future non EU growth, the reality is you can't make claims like this when you don't know how Markets are going to grow in the future, or what trade deals we get.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36150191
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ameron-corbyn/ "Immigration is also increasing housing demand, creating upward pressure on house prices, which reduces affordability for first-time buyers. " in response to the other thread that has been removed...
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    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    I am sure it's only assuming if we didn't access the single market and only based on current exports/imports and ignoring future non EU growth, the reality is you can't make claims like this when you don't know how Markets are going to grow in the future, or what trade deals we get.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36150191
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ameron-corbyn/ "Immigration is also increasing housing demand, creating upward pressure on house prices, which reduces affordability for first-time buyers. " in response to the other thread that has been removed...
    You can't access the Single Market without subjection to EU law and the Four Freedoms, including freedom of movement. That's a non-negotiable.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    You can't access the Single Market without subjection to EU law and the Four Freedoms, including freedom of movement. That's a non-negotiable.
    That's fine, they'll suffer more and eventually come to the negotiating table.
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    http://uk.businessinsider.com/reason...d-idea-2015-10Funny how businesses want to leave the EU, nothing to do with the positive effect on their businesses.................OH LOOK, THE EU IS IN DECLINE! better tie ourselves in with it!
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    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    That's fine, they'll suffer more and eventually come to the negotiating table.
    And we'll suffer even more in the mean time. Seriously, this is one thing in which the EU will. not. budge. It would mean the end of the EU.

    You can stick your fingers in your ears all you like. It would be akin to the SNP saying they are fine with Scotland saying in the EU as long as Scotland could send its own ambassadors, raise its own army, keep all its taxes and disapply any Westminster law it wished.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Seeing as many countries are lining up to declare a lack of interest in a post-Brexit UK as a trading partner of any note, I am unpersuaded.
    and then you consider we're one of the biggest economies on the planet with a huge deal of trade potential.

    Can we reasonably call the EU's economy in trouble since 2008 'stagnating' in the long term? There's nothing really to suggest it is, beyond extrapolating long-term predictions from a (possibly) short-term situation. There may be economists predicting worse to come, but I would argue the EU will remain our main source of wealth for a long time yet. There's no rush.
    stagnating in the sense that its highest rates of growth are in the 0.x values at best. and again, why are you suggesting that the EU can only be traded with from within the EU? the fact that there are nations that free trade from the outside reveals the flaws of this approach

    I get the feeling that this 'we can't know, it's uncertain' is like the old 'evolution is just a theory' thing. Yes, of course it's uncertain - it's prediction. But it's a prediction with a very wide, authoritative and - arguably - impartial consensus. That carries weight.
    no, it's the remain side that is doing the "it's just a theory"s. they say "you can't be sure or certain, therefore you can't say anything at all". that's the thing though - if a nation makes its own trade deals, and it doesn't allow a big bulky block like the EU to do it for it, then how is that going to cause net loss? aren't states rationally self-interested? so in the long term, it will get *better* deals on this basis (again, as one of the biggest economies in the world.) in this time horizon. if you're saying "nobody will trade with us based on x statement of y country" - the idea of china not wanting to trade with us because we're outside of the EU is stupid. if they don't trade with us, and if they use protectionism, they're only going to harm their own economy. why would they do that
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    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    That's fine, they'll suffer more and eventually come to the negotiating table.
    Please elaborate on how our trade will cause the EU to crumble.

    You may want to read this: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...t-/sty-eu.html

    We need the EU far more than they need us. Nevermind the fact that in order to dissuade would-be deserters they are likely to levy larger trade blocks than the 7% elsewhere (which, if we are forced to accept you understand is essentially the same amount of money we invest into the EU anyway, we just won't get anything back) and at least enforce the free movement that Norway has to abide by.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    and then you consider we're one of the biggest economies on the planet with a huge deal of trade potential.
    So is the EU. Even if its economy were in freefall, it's the biggest economy in the world, and will be for some time.

    stagnating in the sense that its highest rates of growth are in the 0.x values at best. and again, why are you suggesting that the EU can only be traded with from within the EU? the fact that there are nations that free trade from the outside reveals the flaws of this approach
    Free trade agreements are miles inferior to access to the Single Market, which requires subjection to EU law.

    no, it's the remain side that is doing the "it's just a theory"s. they say "you can't be sure or certain, therefore you can't say anything at all". that's the thing though - if a nation makes its own trade deals, and it doesn't allow a big bulky block like the EU to do it for it, then how is that going to cause net loss? aren't states rationally self-interested? so in the long term, it will get *better* deals on this basis (again, as one of the biggest economies in the world.) in this time horizon. if you're saying "nobody will trade with us based on x statement of y country" - the idea of china not wanting to trade with us because we're outside of the EU is stupid. if they don't trade with us, and if they use protectionism, they're only going to harm their own economy. why would they do that
    Generally, when a large trading entity is negotiation a deal with a smaller trading entity, the smaller entity is put-upon and gets an inferior deal.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    So is the EU. Even if its economy were in freefall, it's the biggest economy in the world, and will be for some time.



    Free trade agreements are miles inferior to access to the Single Market, which requires subjection to EU law.



    Generally, when a large trading entity is negotiation a deal with a smaller trading entity, the smaller entity is put-upon and gets an inferior deal.
    I find the lay person's general arrogance to our negotiating power outside of the EU highly amusing. It can essentially be summed up as "They have to, WE'RE BRITAIN AND IMPORTANT!"
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Please elaborate on how our trade will cause the EU to crumble.

    You may want to read this: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...t-/sty-eu.html

    We need the EU far more than they need us. Nevermind the fact that in order to dissuade would-be deserters they are likely to levy larger trade blocks than the 7% elsewhere (which, if we are forced to accept you understand is essentially the same amount of money we invest into the EU anyway, we just won't get anything back) and at least enforce the free movement that Norway has to abide by.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...t-by-a-brexit/
    Good, the EU needs to be dissolved. We should not be paying to access a market where we continually have a trade deficit that will only get worse. Free movement of people is also ridiculous and I would vote out just to stop the free movement of workers alone. The eurozone countries can be tied in the mess they love whilst we leave and access markets elsewhere, strengthen our commonwealth ties and ties with other non Eu countries that we actually have cultural ties with. None of this will matter long term when other markets pick up and our exports elsewhere pick up.
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    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...t-by-a-brexit/
    Good, the EU needs to be dissolved. We should not be paying to access a market where we continually have a trade deficit that will only get worse. Free movement of people is also ridiculous and I would vote out just to stop the free movement of workers alone. The eurozone countries can be tied in the mess they love whilst we leave and access markets elsewhere, strengthen our commonwealth ties and ties with other non Eu countries that we actually have cultural ties with. None of this will matter long term when other markets pick up and our exports elsewhere pick up.
    Have you read that article - or have you just googled EU economy suffer brexit? Their economic growth will suffer. They will still continue to flourish, albeit at a slower rate. I am unable to find any forecasts that are as lenient to the British economy. The article itself is stating the pound will suffer, all our exports will suffer. Do you have an idea what impact having an exchange rate of 90 euro cents to 1 GBP will do? You should already be aware that 50% of our trade is with the EU, if our currency falls so hard almost every EU import will increase in price, by quite a considerable margin. But hey ho, EU growth may falter.

    We don't pay for access to a free market where we have a trade deficit.

    Ah, here we get down to the nuts and bolts. What's the problem with free movement of workers? Pretty sure that is entirely a requirement of an ageing population, dwindling birth rates and, apparently, an improvement in the general level of education in skill in the native population.

    Ah, the beauty of the cultural ties with the commonwealth. Please, tell me more about the glistening trade and love they have for us.

    EDIT: I don't even know why I'm discussing this with somebody who believes what the Telegraph publishes - a newspaper with blatent bias and publishes lies on a regular basis. The very article you have linked has some damning statistics for the UJ economy and minor ones for the EU, yet dresses it up as a doomsday scenario for them and all plain sailing for us.
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    (Original post by Conservationofmass)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...t-by-a-brexit/
    Good, the EU needs to be dissolved. We should not be paying to access a market where we continually have a trade deficit that will only get worse.
    Why is a trade deficit inherently bad? We had record high trade deficits in the 90s, but unemployment fell to a historic though.

    Also: how would Brexit reduce or eliminate this trade deficit?

    Free movement of people is also ridiculous and I would vote out just to stop the free movement of workers alone.
    Assuming Brexit does do anything about this. Seeing as Vote Leave seems to further split among itself on a daily basis, I suspect they have absolutely no idea what they want.

    The eurozone countries can be tied in the mess they love whilst we leave and access markets elsewhere, strengthen our commonwealth ties and ties with other non Eu countries that we actually have cultural ties with. None of this will matter long term when other markets pick up and our exports elsewhere pick up.
    See my other thread to list countries champing at the bit at trade opportunities with Brexit UK.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Oh, sorry. Should I pretend that it's perfectly reasonable, rational, good decision-making to dismiss expert opinions and scientific studies? Because it's not, it's ridiculous.


    Give this man a knighthood! Or better yet, Farage for prime minister!

    "We've got to put our own people first!" - These words are music to my ears. Too few people nowadays appreciate the importance of Britain being governed by rational, intelligent, indigenous Britons.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    People didn't listen in the first place, that's why they're so stupid.
    Yeah, don't call the electorate stupid. They aren't.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Without denying that many of the claims made by Leave supporters/campaigners are obvious bulls--t, I think you may want to acquaint yourself with the OP's zealotry on this issue.



    Nail on head, PRSOM. I'll make a point of checking back to see when I can rep this.
    It's quite ironic that whenever someone dares suggest that democracy maybe isn't the ideal system they get completely shut down, called a zealot and have all of their other thoughts dismissed. How utterly ludicrous to suggest that maybe people who aren't qualified to make a decision shouldn't get to make it.
 
 
 
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