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Why do the Brits have this idea that the EU is undemocratic? watch

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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    So what you are saying is mommy, I don't have enough power ?

    The irony is, you have actually just now proven that it is rather democratic, 13% is a minority and hence in a democracy the majority can outvote it.

    Look if you are saying, I feel like we should not be a part of it, because I want my country to be solely determined by decisions made by Brits - fair enough.

    I find that sad, against the spirit of Europe, and somewhat selfish, and full of misguided nationalism, but ok.

    But do NOT hide behind the argument that it is supposedly undemocratic. Nor pretend for one moment that many of the decisions taken, would not have been taken, too by the British parliament.
    The UK has a different mentality to most of the EU. Germany and France are very much interested in further political integration and ultimately a federal state. The UK would like the relationship purely based on trade and cooperation. Both these motivations are fine. It is stupid to call the UK selfish or nationalistic to want to leave. Most of the countries around the world are happy to remain independent and also countries in Europe like Switzerland and Norway.
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    (Original post by alexh42)
    The UK has a different mentality to most of the EU. Germany and France are very much interested in further political integration and ultimately a federal state. The UK would like the relationship purely based on trade and cooperation. Both these motivations are fine. It is stupid to call the UK selfish or nationalistic to want to leave. Most of the countries around the world are happy to remain independent and also countries in Europe like Switzerland and Norway.
    I happen to have lived in 4 of the countries you just mentioned.

    It is not stupid at all, in fact it is incredibly, incredibly accurate to describe, not just the UK, but both Norway and Switzerland as well, in that way.

    Sorry, but I am actually laughing right now that you brought these up. Too uncanny.

    ps it is stupid to call someone saying it is selfish stupid. because even if you don't agree that it is selfish, which it is, it is still stupid to not see why others would think so.

    pps yea, most of the countries. because most of the countries are selfish and nationalistic.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    Stop.

    What does that even mean undemocratic for the British electorate? You sound as nationalist as Americans.

    Something is either democratic or not. You can't say it is for X but not for Y.

    It has nothing to do with democracy. But everything with "I don't have all the power".
    What are you going on about and why are you acting like a little kid with the insults? I can't be bothered to debate with a 10 year old. It's a simple concept any adult would understand.

    On an EU wide level if you consider the EU a single entity and every citizen a European only then yes it's democratic but for individual member states it's not democratic since they the electorate don't vote in 100% of the Politicans like we do on a national level. It's a very simple concept, not hard to understand lol
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    What are you going on about and why are you acting like a little kid with the insults? I can't be bothered to debate with a 10 year old. It's a simple concept any adult would understand.

    On an EU wide level if you consider the EU a single entity and every citizen a European only then yes it's democratic but for individual member states it's not democratic since they the electorate don't vote in 100% of the Politicans like we do on a national level. It's a very simple concept, not hard to understand lol
    Where did I insult you? Though you were fast to the insult yourself calling me a 10 year old.

    The EU is democratic. People vote, a parliament is formed, the members discuss and vote.

    End of story. There is no "omg we don't have enough votes, so its not democratic" bs.

    As I said, if you admitted the real reason is that you don't have enough power, fine. I would understand that. As I have said. But saying it is undemocratic is wrong.
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    It is undemocratic for the British electorate and on a British level but it's democratic on a European level (the EU parliament that is, the EU commission and council is very undemocratic).

    Let me clarify its undemocratic for the BRITISH (and individual member states) but democratic for Europe.
    That sounds pretty democratic to me...
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    That sounds pretty democratic to me...
    Did you read my previous post? The council is very undemocratic, the commission is very undemocratic and the parliament is undemocratic for individual members states. Plus the back room deals so it's undemocratic
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    Where did I insult you? Though you were fast to the insult yourself calling me a 10 year old.

    The EU is democratic. People vote, a parliament is formed, the members discuss and vote.

    End of story. There is no "omg we don't have enough votes, so its not democratic" bs.

    As I said, if you admitted the real reason is that you don't have enough power, fine. I would understand that. As I have said. But saying it is undemocratic is wrong.
    The reason why people say the EU is undemocratic is because officials who we don't elect and cannot remove have more power than officials we can elect and remove. EU laws are proposed by the Commission which is a wholly appointed body which no British citizen (or indeed the citizen of any EU country) can hold into account. Decisions in the EU Council ministers are enacted via qualified majority voting which means even if our representatives vote against a policy it can still be imposed on us by the others (remember we cannot stop them, we cannot remove them). The European Parliament cannot propose legislation it merely ratifies the bills proposed by the commission. EU commissioners swear an oath to serve the interests of the EU not the interests of their member states.

    Just because a body has a parliament it doesn't make it democratic.Our own parliament dates back to the 14th century but that doesn't mean we were a democracy in the medieval period.

    EU is supreme over UK law meaning that any law which the British parliament passes can be struck down by the courts if it contradicts EU law. The question you need to ask yourself is: do I trust people who are appointed and not citizens of my country to have more power than people I can elect and remove?
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    (Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
    The reason why people say the EU is undemocratic is because officials who we don't elect and cannot remove have more power than officials we can elect and remove. EU laws are proposed by the Commission which is a wholly appointed body which no British citizen (or indeed the citizen of any EU country) can hold into account. Decisions in the EU Council ministers are enacted via qualified majority voting which means even if our representatives vote against a policy it can still be imposed on us by the others (remember we cannot stop them, we cannot remove them). The European Parliament cannot propose legislation it merely ratifies the bills proposed by the commission. EU commissioners swear an oath to serve the interests of the EU not the interests of their member states.

    Just because a body has a parliament it doesn't make it democratic.Our own parliament dates back to the 14th century but that doesn't mean we were a democracy in the medieval period.

    EU is supreme over UK law meaning that any law which the British parliament passes can be struck down by the courts if it contradicts EU law. The question you need to ask yourself is: do I trust people who are appointed and not citizens of my country to have more power than people I can elect and remove?
    So? Merkel was not voted for by the German people either?

    In Germany you vote for the Bundestag, the President then proposes a Chancellor, and the Bundestag gets to vote on that. There is no direct vote.

    Have you ever asked who appoints the commission?
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    So? Merkel was not voted for by the German people either?

    In Germany you vote for the Bundestag, the President then proposes a Chancellor, and the Bundestag gets to vote on that. There is no direct vote.

    Have you ever asked who appoints the commission?
    You still haven't addressed the fact that British citizens have no means of electing, removing, or holding European officials in the commission to account. There is no mechanism of achieving that. Remember, EU Commissioners swear an oath to the EU, they don't represent their own member states.

    You still haven't addressed the matter that laws which our representatives in parliament or the council of ministers have voted against can still be imposed on us by people we cannot appoint or elect and are not citizens of our country.

    You also didn't address the fact that the EU parliament isn't really a parliament. It cannot even propose legislation. Even supporters of the EU call the parliament (supposedly the most democratic feature of the EU) a quasi-legislative body.

    I'll ask you the question again: do you trust people who are appointed and not citizens of your country to have more power than people you can elect and remove?
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    (Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
    You still haven't addressed the fact that British citizens have no means of electing, removing, or holding European officials in the commission to account. There is no mechanism of achieving that. Remember, EU Commissioners swear an oath to the EU, they don't represent their own member states.

    You still haven't addressed the matter that laws which our representatives in parliament or the council of ministers have voted against can still be imposed on us by people we cannot appoint or elect and are not citizens of our country.

    You also didn't address the fact that the EU parliament isn't really a parliament. It cannot even propose legislation. Even supporters of the EU call the parliament (supposedly the most democratic feature of the EU) a quasi-legislative body.

    I'll ask you the question again: do you trust people who are appointed and not citizens of your country to have more power than people you can elect and remove?
    I don't need to.

    Don't you get it?

    Nothing you have said makes the EU "undemocratic".

    You guys are so funny, and I finally understand why you behave this way - it is all about "the British people" and the people in charge are "not citizens of our country".

    I do get it now. But still, what I said last night, stop spreading the lie that it is undemocratic. Just be honest and say "we are giving up power and I don't like that". Just be honest, really...
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    It's very undemocratic.

    Firstly the council and commission are the ones who propose policies that are then passed into debate by the parliament.
    not true

    EU legislation is proposed solely by the Commission (the EU executive): just like in a State, where most legislation passing through Parliament is initially proposed by the executive (Governments)
    (Original post by Omen96)
    The council is made up of one minister (so Cameron for us) from each member state. That's 28 at the moment. If the UK is against something (representative of the U.K. electorate) but the other states push it in we have to have it imposed on us even if we got no vote on it.
    Not true

    in the EU system, there are decisions which in the Council can be taken by majority voting, and other which have to be taken unanimously. In particular, decisions in security and foreign policy, but also e.g. on fiscal matters have to be taken by unanimity. Then, of course, you have to take into account the role of the European Parliament

    (Original post by Omen96)
    The commission is headed by Jean Claude Junker and here there is no elected representatives, junker picks his cabinet only with the rule he has to use ministers from all around the EU member states, but where they are stationed or positioned is purely up to him.
    not true

    Junker is designated by the Council, "taking into account". the results of the European elections. Junker then has to negotiate the composition of his "cabinet" (the Commission) with the Council, and all Members are interviewed for their suitability by the EP. They are not necessarily ministers or former ministers. The entire Commission is then approved by Council and then receives a "confidence vote" by the EP

    (Original post by Omen96)
    And it's primarily here that policy is proposed, written up and passed.
    not true
    the Commisssion drafts initial proposals. Then, legislation is passed either jointly by Council and EP (acting as two legislative organs) or, in some areas, by the Council alone (with the EP being merely consulted)
    (Original post by Omen96)
    EU parliament is where they actually debate and vote.
    not true
    in many areas, the EP is merely consulted (this is true, in particular, for the areas where the Council decides by unanimity)
    (Original post by Omen96)
    This commission is very undemocratic, on so many levels. For example junker put the German representative in the economy department meaning all economic policies are proposed by a German with German interests, that is more than undemocratic, it's the same across the whole board.
    all proposals elaborated by the Commission have to be approved by the entire body. Single Members of the Commission cannot propose legislation to the other EU organs on an individual basis

    (Original post by Omen96)
    Secondly, Britain only has 13% representation in the EU parliament. If all UK MEPs vote against something in the interest of the British public, but it gets voted in nonetheless then it is imposed on the British public. This is different because all UK MPs are elected by the British electorate giving it more democratic standing. Only 13% of those in the European Parliament are elected by the British electorate.
    this is the first quasi-correct claim you make

    yes, the UK representatives can be voted down in the EP, and so can the UK Government (in areas where there is majority voting in Council). This is true for all Member States, on a reciprocal basis.

    This is what logically happens when you are part of a body like the EU which, in some areas, does have some elements of a federal organisation

    hope this helps
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Let me clarify its undemocratic for the BRITISH (and individual member states) but democratic for Europe.
    This is the same as how the British system is undemocratic for individual counties. This is simply how democracy works.

    I agree with the undemocratic principles of laws being proposed not being decided by an elected body however.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    He hasn't actually backed up anything he said though...

    And what is Britain currently giving up? I asked this in another thread - if all the decisions are being made by the EU, why does Britain even still have a Parliament? What are they doing all day? I mean it can't discussing laws for Britain, coz you know, the EU is doing all that.
    Who on earth has said all the decisions are made by the EU? some are, but then some are made in Westminster for the Scots. It's a matter of degree and choosing where doing so leads to optimal results.

    Nobody is suggesting the EU should take over the British government. There's no desire to, and it wouldn't work anyway.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Who on earth has said all the decisions are made by the EU? some are, but then some are made in Westminster for the Scots. It's a matter of degree and choosing where doing so leads to optimal results.

    Nobody is suggesting the EU should take over the British government. There's no desire to, and it wouldn't work anyway.
    I was being purposefully overdramatic.

    I did that, because the person I replied to (I don't remember if that was you or not) was making out exactly this, that everything is decided by Brussels. Which I agree with you, is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    I was being purposefully overdramatic.

    I did that, because the person I replied to (I don't remember if that was you or not) was making out exactly this, that everything is decided by Brussels. Which I agree with you, is ridiculous.
    Ah, beg your pardon
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    So, the British want rid of the unelected Commission so they can give power back to unelected ministers an unelected House of Lords and an unelected, hereditary head of state... Brilliant.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    I happen to have lived in 4 of the countries you just mentioned.

    It is not stupid at all, in fact it is incredibly, incredibly accurate to describe, not just the UK, but both Norway and Switzerland as well, in that way.

    Sorry, but I am actually laughing right now that you brought these up. Too uncanny.

    ps it is stupid to call someone saying it is selfish stupid. because even if you don't agree that it is selfish, which it is, it is still stupid to not see why others would think so.

    pps yea, most of the countries. because most of the countries are selfish and nationalistic.
    Why is it selfish? You could argue it is selfish for Germany to be in the EU, since they benefit the most from it at the detriment of other EU countries.
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    (Original post by alexh42)
    Why is it selfish? You could argue it is selfish for Germany to be in the EU, since they benefit the most from it at the detriment of other EU countries.
    looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooool

    In the other thread people are arguing against the EU because Britain is a net payer. Well guess what, so is Germany, and so according to the anti-EU logic Germany would benefit from leaving. Which is actually exactly what Nigel Farage wants (I was given a video of his to watch and he says after UK leaving he wants to free other countries in Europe from the EU).
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    not true

    EU legislation is proposed solely by the Commission (the EU executive): just like in a State, where most legislation passing through Parliament is initially proposed by the executive (Governments)Not true

    in the EU system, there are decisions which in the Council can be taken by majority voting, and other which have to be taken unanimously. In particular, decisions in security and foreign policy, but also e.g. on fiscal matters have to be taken by unanimity. Then, of course, you have to take into account the role of the European Parliament

    not true

    Junker is designated by the Council, "taking into account". the results of the European elections. Junker then has to negotiate the composition of his "cabinet" (the Commission) with the Council, and all Members are interviewed for their suitability by the EP. They are not necessarily ministers or former ministers. The entire Commission is then approved by Council and then receives a "confidence vote" by the EP

    not true
    the Commisssion drafts initial proposals. Then, legislation is passed either jointly by Council and EP (acting as two legislative organs) or, in some areas, by the Council alone (with the EP being merely consulted)
    not true
    in many areas, the EP is merely consulted (this is true, in particular, for the areas where the Council decides by unanimity)all proposals elaborated by the Commission have to be approved by the entire body. Single Members of the Commission cannot propose legislation to the other EU organs on an individual basis

    this is the first quasi-correct claim you make

    yes, the UK representatives can be voted down in the EP, and so can the UK Government (in areas where there is majority voting in Council). This is true for all Member States, on a reciprocal basis.

    This is what logically happens when you are part of a body like the EU which, in some areas, does have some elements of a federal organisation

    hope this helps
    1. Wrong, policy has been both proposed by the council and commission which has proceeded to debate and nonetheless I said further down my post that the commission PRIMARILY does this so that was my implication for that point

    2. What are you stating here? Yes there is a decision making process where we can be forced to impose the result even if we vote against as a country, that's the point I made. The rest of what you said is unnecessary to my post as I never mentioned foreign policy and so on. It would be stupid to suggest the EU serves at that level...yet

    3. I know Junker is voted in by the council of which we and Hungary voted against. Firstly you can argue if that process if democratic as effectively we are given a head of state we the electorate had no choice in picking. Secondly, thank you for ignoring the various back room deals and corrupt activities that saw him win, in no way was it an open and fair process. Thirdly, nice attempted at trying to convince yourself that his cabinet is elected democratically. There is no system off voting and Junker had the final say, not even you can wriggle out of that one. If Junker wants a German representative in the economic ministerial position he gets it regardless. To suggest an interviewing process is democratic is desperate to say the least.

    4. Have you not just made the point for the EU not being democratic? Firstly, the commission proposes policies and my point where they pass them was made on the basis they are approved by the other bodies, I never explicitly stated they pass it without consultation or legal process. But you saying the EP only gets to consult many matters in some respect and not have the final say is making the whole "elected parliament" powerless. The parliament is the closest to democracy (and even then it is not) yet you are saying there are policies it can only give advice on but not overrule or pass? That seals the deal for me

    5. And this is what is not democratic on a nation wide level. There is no democracy for "British electorate", regardless if there is democracy (which there rarely is anyway) on a European wide level
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    This is the same as how the British system is undemocratic for individual counties. This is simply how democracy works.

    I agree with the undemocratic principles of laws being proposed not being decided by an elected body however.
    I was waiting for someone to bring that argument in to play and I don't think it valid. You need an element of common sense in this one. British counties voting for a British government on the matter of British policy making, makes more sense than EU countries voting for an EU parliament for British policy making. All policies should be made in the British Parliament, and that's my point, matter of principle more than anything
 
 
 
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