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Should Holocaust denial be illegal? Watch

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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    Actually genocide denial is the last stage in Gregory Stanton's 10 Stages of Genocide; he, and many other genocide scholars including myself, posits denial as one of the surest indicators of further mass killings. Remember that it was Hitler who once legitimised his killings of the Jewish populations with 'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?' It was Orwell who condemned the morality of the English who tried to deny the existence of Dachau, Buchenwald or of the Russian concentration camps. It was the US' government denial and inactivity over the mounting crisis in Rwanda which led to the country's tragedy. Do I think states - such as Turkey or Sudan - should be held accountable for genocide denial, which on a state level is indistinguishable from the curbing of free speech anyway? Absolutely. And if that law must also extend to individuals, as it already does in many European countries, then so be it. People fail to realise that even in international human rights law the exercising of freedom of speech may be subject to restrictions "for respect of the rights or reputation of others or for the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".
    With respect you're talking nonsense.

    Nothing in anything you've written suggests that refraining from imprisoning David Irving for publishing his opinion that the holocaust was either exaggerated or never happened will lead to another.

    By criminalising certain interpretations of history we are continuing the legacies of the regimes we hope to keep buried, and denying their resurrectionists a fair exchange of views only serves to martyr them and further inflame their hatreds.

    I understand that freedom of speech is actually a liberty, but you fail to convince me that prohibiting historians and ordinary people from openly reaching certain conclusions about certain areas of history can ever be justified 'for respect of the rights or reputation of others or for the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals'. It is a sentence that could have come straight out of a telescreen and I certainly cannot see Orwell agreeing with your position.
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    Better think while it's still legal.
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    Actually genocide denial is the last stage in Gregory Stanton's 10 Stages of Genocide; he, and many other genocide scholars including myself, posits denial as one of the surest indicators of further mass killings. Remember that it was Hitler who once legitimised his killings of the Jewish populations with 'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?' It was Orwell who condemned the morality of the English who tried to deny the existence of Dachau, Buchenwald or of the Russian concentration camps. It was the US' government denial and inactivity over the mounting crisis in Rwanda which led to the country's tragedy. Do I think states - such as Turkey or Sudan - should be held accountable for genocide denial, which on a state level is indistinguishable from the curbing of free speech anyway? Absolutely. And if that law must also extend to individuals, as it already does in many European countries, then so be it. People fail to realise that even in international human rights law the exercising of freedom of speech may be subject to restrictions "for respect of the rights or reputation of others or for the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".
    (Original post by DrLovejoy)
    It's all very much fuzzy logic hyperbole.

    Denial laws are a legitimate reason to deny something on the basis that they a legitimate cause to suspect that something odd is going on. The truth does not need laws to protect it.

    The law does not exist to protect historical truth. The law exists to preserve social peace.

    However, the right to free speech is not a right to lie.

    Is holocaust denial a threat to social peace? There is no rational evidence that in the UK it is. There is no justification for a ban.

    The answer to my question may not be the same elsewhere and where the answer is different, a ban may be appropriate.
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    I would like it to be legal to occasionally have a TV reporter that has enough balls to investigate some aspects of Jewish communities to see if their is any "favouritism" going on in business deals, job offers and the like.

    Take for example the Russian Oligarchs. Is it coincidence that so many of them are Jewish?
    What about top investment bankers? Is it coincidence?
    What about in the media - is it coincidence?

    Yes I do understand that if a small group became billionaires a long time ago, this money stays for generations and generations (like the Normans in the UK) - so it could appear to be "dodgy" in some way but in reality its just what you would expect.

    but seeing this, I'm not totally unconvinced that some of it is helping co-religionists at the expense of others.
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    (Original post by spacepirate-James)
    Remember that it was Hitler who once legitimised his killings of the Jewish populations with 'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?'
    Just a minor pedantic point; while Hitler did say this to justify genocidal extermination, he was in this particular case legitimising the mass killing of Poles, not Jews.
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    No, no no no no no no no NO! Definitely not!

    Silencing your opponents won't make them go away.

    Btw I have Jewish heritage.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    I think people who believe the Holocaust happened as we are told in the history books are pretty stupid. The 6 million figure as already been lowered to 1 million!
    Citation?

    My bet in advance is that you'll go with the Auschwitz plaque gambit here.

    Yes the camps exist that's obvious to see.. but there is no evidence that any Jew was gassed to death. The Zyklon B apparently used to gas the Jews was actually used to try to save lives via delousing clothing etc.. anyway why am i bothering!
    Well, for a start they only used Zyklon B at Auschwitz and Majdanek. At Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor they used carbon monoxide for the gassings instead.

    As for the claim that Zyklon B wasn't used for killings, this one was ironically actually proved by a Holocaust denier - Fred Leuchter - by accident; he found much more cyanide in gas chambers that were known to have only been used for delousing that he did in those regarded as used for killings. Leuchter, being pretty ignorant of the topic, assumed that humans required far more gas than lice to kill, and that therefore he must have disproved homicidal gassings. Except the opposite is true; lice require far more than humans - Leuchter proved precisely what he was trying to disprove. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.
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    I suppose it depends who tells these tales.. I like to see facts at all times.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    I suppose it depends who tells these tales.. I like to see facts at all times.
    I gave you several.
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    I do apologise i meant facts with sources of evidence.. and is it credible ie not hearsay..

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    I gave you several.
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    This thread might be 70 years out of date...
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    I think people who believe the Holocaust happened as we are told in the history books are pretty stupid. The 6 million figure as already been lowered to 1 million! Yes the camps exist that's obvious to see.. but there is no evidence that any Jew was gassed to death. The Zyklon B apparently used to gas the Jews was actually used to try to save lives via delousing clothing etc.. anyway why am i bothering!
    & the ovens were actually to bake nice bagels to feed them
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    and the 1 million figure, unfortunately, is stated on wikipeadia so i agree not very credible..

    this shows how the 6 million "myth" came about throughout history in media publications
    https://www.radioislam.org/islam/eng...llion_myth.htm

    another site containing sources of verifiable information:
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/holofour.php

    also Youtube
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    I do apologise i meant facts with sources of evidence.. and is it credible ie not hearsay..
    Which is what I provided. What 'evidence' do you want? Are you arguing that Zyklon B was used at Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor? Are you arguing that humans do require more gas to kill than lice?
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    Lol we already have our freedom of speech taken. Now we can't even have opinions?
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    The ovens where not large enough nor powerful enough to bake multiple bagels let alone human bodies! They obviously used the ovens to dispose of any unfortunate deaths.. these deaths of course that naturally occur in such an environment and that many people where being held as POW (from many nationalities I need to add) Not allowing Germany to purchase food (trade embargo's) and without the ability to grow enough themselves (this was war time) people starved and got ill.. yes not perfect conditions.. but evidence of a swimming pool and many photo's of happy POWS can be found playing sports etc.. unfortunately people died
    (Original post by the bear)
    & the ovens were actually to bake nice bagels to feed them
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    Well could you link any websites or information to prove your theory? if they lied about Auschwitz and still sell tours and tell the same stories to people even today.. how can you believe anything without actually seeing the proof?

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Which is what I provided. What 'evidence' do you want? Are you arguing that Zyklon B was used at Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor? Are you arguing that humans do require more gas to kill than lice?
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    and the 1 million figure, unfortunately, is stated on wikipeadia so i agree not very credible..

    this shows how the 6 million "myth" came about throughout history in media publications
    https://www.radioislam.org/islam/eng...llion_myth.htm

    another site containing sources of verifiable information:
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/holofour.php

    also Youtube
    Or you could, you know, read the numerous heavily-researched and copiously documented books written by serious historians on the topic over the years?
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    The ovens where not large enough nor powerful enough to bake multiple bagels let alone human bodies! They obviously used the ovens to dispose of any unfortunate deaths.. these deaths of course that naturally occur in such an environment and that many people where being held as POW (from many nationalities I need to add) Not allowing Germany to purchase food (trade embargo's) and without the ability to grow enough themselves (this was war time) people starved and got ill.. yes not perfect conditions.. but evidence of a swimming pool and many photo's of happy POWS can be found playing sports etc.. unfortunately people died
    i find myself unable to agree with you.
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    That does not surprise me at all
    (Original post by the bear)
    i find myself unable to agree with you.
 
 
 
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