Why we should leave the EU

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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
  • View Poll Results: do you want UNELECTED politicians in BRUSSELS telling you what to do?
    Yes
    14
    22.95%
    No
    33
    54.10%
    I CAN'T THINK FOR MYSELF
    2
    3.28%
    I'M IN LOVE WITH ANGELA MERKEL
    12
    19.67%

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    because staying in is gay hehe
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    (Original post by Gapyearstudent54)
    We don't have a constitution as a country; the government could literally take away all our rights and there would be nothing to stop them without the EU. (hypothetical, but still could occur if wanted)
    what? you want a constitution to codify *that*? :lol: good god.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    Yes, I'd rather have some politicians in Brussels, who are devoid of a political agenda, making laws than David Cameron.
    so ultimately you'd rather have a "good king" than a "bad parliament"
    but what happens when the king turns bad? at least the parliament can change
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    so ultimately you'd rather have a "good king" than a "bad parliament"
    but what happens when the king turns bad? at least the parliament can change
    The thing is, these politicians won't turn bad. They are not motivated by public opinion. If David Cameron were able to have their power, I have no doubt he would introduce random laws or policies solely to appeal to the tories or to manipulate public opinion of him - almost exactly as the tories' random plan for forced "academisation" and Osbourne's sugar tax. The people in Brussels have it as their job and they have a track record of making sensible decisions which have helped improve things like hygiene standards in countries such as Greece.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    The thing is, these politicians won't turn bad. They are not motivated by public opinion. If David Cameron were able to have their power, I have no doubt he would introduce random laws or policies solely to appeal to the tories or to manipulate public opinion of him - almost exactly as the tories' random plan for forced "academisation" and Osbourne's sugar tax. The people in Brussels have it as their job and they have a track record of making sensible decisions which have helped improve things like hygiene standards in countries such as Greece.
    :lol: it's funny, it's almost as if you have no idea about the bad things the EU has done.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    :lol: it's funny, it's almost as if you have no idea about the bad things the EU has done.
    It's funny that you are unaware of the bad things the tories have done, and will continue to do with greater power, if we leave the EU.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    It's funny that you are unaware of the bad things the tories have done, and will continue to do with greater power, if we leave the EU.
    *groan*
    again, a bad parliament > a good king
    I didn't vote for the tories. but I recognise that they are at least somewhat accountable to the electorate. they didn't just magically come to power for no reason, did they?
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Is there a place I can read up unbiased, informative criticisms of both sides? I don't know a lot about the EU.

    TSR is just not the place for that anymore..
    You can check the campaign sites for leave and remain.
    http://www.leave.eu/en/the-facts
    http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts

    I'm for leave because I think that sovereignty and to control immigration is more important than whatever economic advantage remain could have. The question I ask myself is if Britain would vote to join the EU as it is now. Probably not.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    *groan*
    again, a bad parliament > a good king
    I didn't vote for the tories. but I recognise that thy are at least somwhat accountable to the electorate. they didn't just magically come to power for no reason, did they?
    You're right, they were elected by the morons in this country who have no perspective on the world, who have no empathy for the problems outside of their isolated towns which they probably haven't even left in their entire lives.

    And I disagree, a good king is better than a bad parliament, so long as the king has a good track record and he doesn't go crazy. Which Brussels politicians won't.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    You're right, they were elected by the morons in this country who have no perspective on the world, who have no empathy for the problems outside of their isolated towns which they probably haven't even left in their entire lives.
    so you're ultimately admitting that the "moronic" voters don't deserve democracy...so why do they deserve good laws by contrast...?

    And I disagree, a good king is better than a bad parliament, so long as the king has a good track record and he doesn't go crazy. Which Brussels politicians won't.
    a king doesn't come to power via a track record though. he comes to power via authority, not democracy. so your regard for a track record is meaningless. also, even if it was about track record, does a track record guarantee that they won't turn into a tyrant? nope. that's the thing: a parliament might try to become tyrannical (so long as it is within the meaning of a parliament, e.g. elections, majorities, etc) but it won't last long - you can get rid of david cameron, or at least try, via democracy - it's not like he's there forever upon a throne
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    I was only 9 years old and I loved Merkel so much, I had all her photos from Brussels.
    I prayed to Merkel every night, thanking her for the life I had been given
    Merkel is love. Merkel is life.
    JordanL_ overhears me and calls me a Berliner
    I know he was just jealous of my devotion to Merkel.
    He slaps me and sends me to sleep
    I'm crying now, and my face hurts
    I lay in bed and its really cold
    A warmth is moving towards me.
    I feel something touch me
    It's Merkel
    I am so happy
    She whispers in my ear "Stay in the EU"
    She grabs me with her powerful ogre hands and puts me on my chair
    I'm ready
    I grab my pencil for the voting paper
    Her hand grips on my back
    It hurts so much but I do it for Merkel
    I can feel my back tearing as my eyes start to water
    I push against her force
    I want to please Merkel
    She roars a mighty roar as I put a cross next to yes.
    Josb walks in
    Merkel looks him straight in the eye and says "The wurst is over now"
    Merkel leaves through my window
    Merkel is love, Merkel is life
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    I was only 9 years old and I loved Merkel so much, I had all her photos from Brussels.
    I prayed to Merkel every night, thanking her for the life I had been given
    Merkel is love. Merkel is life.
    JordanL_ overhears me and calls me a Berliner
    I know he was just jealous of my devotion to Merkel.
    He slaps me and sends me to sleep
    I'm crying now, and my face hurts
    I lay in bed and its really cold
    A warmth is moving towards me.
    I feel something touch me
    It's Merkel
    I am so happy
    She whispers in my ear "Stay in the EU"
    She grabs me with her powerful ogre hands and puts me on my chair
    I'm ready
    I grab my pencil for the voting paper
    Her hand grips on my back
    It hurts so much but I do it for Merkel
    I can feel my back tearing as my eyes start to water
    I push against her force
    I want to please Merkel
    She roars a mighty roar as I put a cross next to yes.
    Josb walks in
    Merkel looks him straight in the eye and says "The wurst is over now"
    Merkel leaves through my window
    Merkel is love, Merkel is life
    :lolwut: :lol:

    I also used to admire Merkel, when she only took cold, tactful, "realpolitik" decisions. She has lost it since the beginning of her third term. The Greek crisis was already a first warning; she was so frightened to take a decision, or to look dictatorial, that she let the situation rot, whilst a painful but necessary decision would have solved the crisis. It's the same with the migrants.
    Germany is not made to lead the EU.
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    (Original post by KaminiZindagi)
    I love my Angie:blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::blush::love::love::love::love::loveduck::loveduck::loveduck:

    und David ist zo...


    aber Boris ist zo...

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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    I was only 9 years old and I loved Merkel so much, I had all her photos from Brussels.
    I prayed to Merkel every night, thanking her for the life I had been given
    Merkel is love. Merkel is life.
    JordanL_ overhears me and calls me a Berliner
    I know he was just jealous of my devotion to Merkel.
    He slaps me and sends me to sleep
    I'm crying now, and my face hurts
    I lay in bed and its really cold
    A warmth is moving towards me.
    I feel something touch me
    It's Merkel
    I am so happy
    She whispers in my ear "Stay in the EU"
    She grabs me with her powerful ogre hands and puts me on my chair
    I'm ready
    I grab my pencil for the voting paper
    Her hand grips on my back
    It hurts so much but I do it for Merkel
    I can feel my back tearing as my eyes start to water
    I push against her force
    I want to please Merkel
    She roars a mighty roar as I put a cross next to yes.
    Josb walks in
    Merkel looks him straight in the eye and says "The wurst is over now"
    Merkel leaves through my window
    Merkel is love, Merkel is life
    I came
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    so you're ultimately admitting that the "moronic" voters don't deserve democracy...so why do they deserve good laws by contrast...?



    a king doesn't come to power via a track record though. he comes to power via authority, not democracy. so your regard for a track record is meaningless. also, even if it was about track record, does a track record guarantee that they won't turn into a tyrant? nope. that's the thing: a parliament might try to become tyrannical (so long as it is within the meaning of a parliament, e.g. elections, majorities, etc) but it won't last long - you can get rid of david cameron, or at least try, via democracy - it's not like he's there forever upon a throne
    I think the moronic voters who have no outward empathy need to stop letting right wing propaganda brainwash them, and thereby also stop being tools for the conservatives who are actively worsening the lives of poor people in this country.

    And drop this absurd 'king' analogy, Brussels politicians can be removed, just not by us. And they are a far safer bet than the tories who would no doubt, given their recent track records (sugar tax, forced academisation), add laws and manipulate things for their own agenda. The Brussels politicians have no agenda apart from to do their job.
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    (Original post by 雷尼克)
    I think the moronic voters who have no outward empathy need to stop letting right wing propaganda brainwash them, and thereby also stop being tools for the conservatives who are actively worsening the lives of poor people in this country.

    And drop this absurd 'king' analogy, Brussels politicians can be removed, just not by us. And they are a far safer bet than the tories who would no doubt, given their recent track records (sugar tax, forced academisation), add laws and manipulate things for their own agenda. The Brussels politicians have no agenda apart from to do their job.
    there's a difference between empathy and socialism though, for instance. there's a difference between charity and welfare. charity is done via peaceful and respectable channels, e.g. consent, persuasion, co-operation etc whereas welfare is done via coercion, taxation, a lack of consent, etc. so blurring the boundaries between empathy and socialist policies (I assume that''s what you're talking about?) is not done intelligently when there are, like I've implied, important differences

    okay, "good dictators", it doesn't matter who is the subject of my analogy, it's still just an analogy. it's meaningful though because democracies are always going to be flawed, but dictators (or similar) can be truly catastrophic by comparison. it's not as if there aren't a plethora of examples of good dictators turning into tyrants in human history.

    with regards to MEPs, we don't vote for them based on policies. we vote for them based on their *general* party philosophies (as their manifestos don't define their policies). that's why UKIP won so much support in 2014. you can see that UKIP represents the philosophy of euroscepticism better than the tories, that's why the tories didn't win even as a bigger party. philosophies, though, don't represent particular policies, overall. if I voted for a UKIP MEP, I do not, then, know how they are going to vote on all these undefined policy areas - because we will never know the agenda of the commission and the laws that they will put to the parliament. that's why it's undemocratic - the parliament not being the basis for the commission's authority (basically) is a massive reason for its illegitimacy - if you have that separation (as opposed to a relative fusion, like in a parliamentary democracy), and you have the commission largely unaccountable (as opposed to a presidential democracy), then you will have a parliament of people who are elected without the knowledge of what they are going to possibly be voting in favour of or against. don't you see that? for example, how would we have known that the candidates for president of the commission? so how does voting for an MEP influence the commission's agenda? the parliament, like I said, doesn't drive the EU's agenda-voting for an MEP is nothing but a symbol of euroscepticism or europhilia.

    sorry for the long paragraph, by the way
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    If the EU is undemocratic how come we get a referendum and have UKIP MEPs Again? Taken to its logical conclusion, the UK is also undemocratic


    The EU is a form of mixed government which is in some ways a constitutional republic.

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-info...s/index_en.htm
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    (Original post by Gapyearstudent54)
    But I mean, if you don't want to be able to live in other countries without a Visa
    This is incorrect as we'd stay in the EEA.

    be able to have the EU say phone companies can't charge everyone a ridiculous amount abroad
    Oh sure because that was the EU's idea and not the International Telephone Users Group (ITUG) in their 1999 report which investigated GSM roaming which forwarded the infrastructure to sort this roaming charge nonsense--which the EU then delayed for far too long.
    But keep reading the Guardian like the daft sheep you are.

    and have more of a diverse place around you
    What does this mean? What is with the obsession of using buzzwords instead of giving anything substantial?

    the house of lords is unelected, yes they can be bypassed, but still, they're unelected.
    I don't get this argument.

    Company A produces Product A and Product B. I don't like Product B, but because Product A doesn't taste very nice, I should like Product B and Product A instead of getting rid of both of them.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    there's a difference between empathy and socialism though, for instance. there's a difference between charity and welfare. charity is done via peaceful and respectable channels, e.g. consent, persuasion, co-operation etc whereas welfare is done via coercion, taxation, a lack of consent, etc. so blurring the boundaries between empathy and socialist policies (I assume that''s what you're talking about?) is not done intelligently when there are, like I've implied, important differences
    Indeed there are. But at the same time, there is always an implicit coercion on any government unless you want anarchy. Even if you want as small a state as possible (basically judiciary and army) why should I be forced to surrender my money on something which I think id be better left alone (i could recruit and equip my own private army at an extreme level, or simply I could survive in the wilderness with s crossbow)




    okay, "good dictators", it doesn't matter who is the subject of my analogy, it's still just an analogy. it's meaningful though because democracies are always going to be flawed, but dictators (or similar) can be truly catastrophic by comparison. it's not as if there aren't a plethora of examples of good dictators turning into tyrants in human history.
    One of the great liberal fears is the tyranny of the majority which is where pure democracy has a tendency to descend to oligarchy. This is where the concept of checks and balances comes in- eg a partly unelected second chamber and a constitutional monarch as well as an independent judiciary. And do the thinking goes that a system with checks and balances will cancel out the negative risks of democracy by diluting the absolute power of the state.


    with regards to MEPs, we don't vote for them based on policies. we vote for them based on their *general* party philosophies (as their manifestos don't define their policies).
    Well that's just rubbish. They have both.

    For instance:
    https://europeangreens.eu/content/egp-manifesto

    that's why UKIP won so much support in 2014. you can see that UKIP represents the philosophy of euroscepticism better than the tories, that's why the tories didn't win even as a bigger party. philosophies, though, don't represent particular policies, overall. if I voted for a UKIP MEP, I do not, then, know how they are going to vote on all these undefined policy areas - because we will never know the agenda of the commission and the laws that they will put to the parliament. that's why it's undemocratic - the parliament not being the basis for the commission's authority (basically) is a massive reason for its illegitimacy - if you have that separation (as opposed to a relative fusion, like in a parliamentary democracy), and you have the commission largely unaccountable (as opposed to a presidential democracy), then you will have a parliament of people who are elected without the knowledge of what they are going to possibly be voting in favour of or against. don't you see that? for example, how would we have known that the candidates for president of the commission? so how does voting for an MEP influence the commission's agenda? the parliament, like I said, doesn't drive the EU's agenda-voting for an MEP is nothing but a symbol of euroscepticism or europhilia.

    sorry for the long paragraph, by the way

    Again wrong, I suspect wilful ignorance. Juncker for instance was elected with a clear agenda of stabilising the euro via certain economic measures eg printing more currency. See above as well as here:

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-info...s/index_en.htm
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    The EU parliament is an elected body and each member of the commission is nominated by their respective country's democratically elected government.

    I'd like to see the commission become directly electable in the future as well, but the current setup isn't the tyrannical dictatorship that the Eurosceptics claim.
 
 
 
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