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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Dear me. Okay, let me make this perfectly clear before I reiterate what I have already said about a thousand times in the past month on this issue.

    Your religion calls my lifestyle immoral and condemns my acts of love also. There are also radical Christians out there who would be happy if homosexuals were murdered along with other minorities. So do not forget that when you're besmirching the name of one other faith simply because its been given so much media coverage that its been bombarded left right and centre. Many muslims do not condone the execution of homosexuals and many would not treat you or I differently. This poll asks for beliefs. Lord Samosa does not feel that homosexual acts or morally in-keeping with Islamic tradition. However, that does not make him an extremist or a hateful idiot. It's his faith and I respect that as much as he respects my sexuality. I would not judge him or treat him abhorrently because he has views based on his faith. Religion has collectively condemned people for all manner of things. If we followed religion literally, we'd all be lining up for hell.

    Now, I will make the second part plainer still.

    I do not support or condone Islamic concepts or Islamic states' laws which persecute women, homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, asexuals, or people from other faiths. I support the right to practise your religion privately and without discrimination or hatred because those are the very things I expect. Whether somebody thinks gay sex is immoral is not of interest to me. They may practise their religion how they please as long as it does not harm others and when it does, they will be subject to British laws.

    Do I make myself much clearer now? If not, I refuse to have this debate further. You're all simply too jaded to understand my point. If you think I condone the execution of gays on the grounds of "oh but they have the right to practise" then you are deluded.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up one second here.

    Yes, I know Christianity does not approve of homosexual acts of love but nowhere in our NT does it say that homosexuals should be executed nor did Jesus ever condone the execution of sinners. I'd like to see these so-called Christians that would celebrate the death of homosexuals, they are not Christians even according to our own books of the NT.

    ''1 John 4:20''“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”


    Nowhere in my post did I accuse moderate muslims of wanting to murder homosexuals, just the radical elements such as ISIS. it isn't unheard of in muslim countries to see homosexuals hanging, even without the influence of ISIS, so it isn't just Islamic terrorist groups that believe in death for homosexuals.

    One muslim does not disprove the viewpoints of all the muslims surveyed in the above posted polls.
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    (Original post by Erebor)
    We are talking about the average muslim in the world, the ones that liberals think are so peaceful and tolerant. Turns out they are not, far from it. We don't need millions more flooding in, we have enough as it is.

    As for the UK, 52% of muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. They didn't ask what the punishment should be for it, but if the vast majority of muslim countries are a clue it probably wouldn't be 15 hours of community service..

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/eu...uslims-survey/
    Thank you Erebor for your stats, I like dealing with facts
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    Woah woah woah.
    Keep on dreaming though lmao

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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    I'm not so sure about the radical part, Erebor. How many of the muslims in the UK would execute or have gays executed? Do you have any statistics on that?
    I thought I already destroyed your arguments in another thread don't embarrass yourself.
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    (Original post by okey)
    I thought I already destroyed your arguments in another thread don't embarrass yourself.
    I don't remember this
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up one second here.

    Yes, I know Christianity does not approve of homosexual acts of love but nowhere in our NT does it say that homosexuals should be executed nor did Jesus ever condone the execution of sinners. I'd like to see these so-called Christians that would celebrate the death of homosexuals, they are not Christians even according to our own books of the NT.

    ''1 John 4:20''“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

    Nowhere in my post did I accuse moderate muslims of wanting to murder homosexuals, just the radical elements such as ISIS. it isn't unheard of in muslim countries to see homosexuals hanging, even without the influence of ISIS, so it isn't just Islamic terrorist groups that believe in death for homosexuals.

    One muslim does not disprove the viewpoints of all the muslims surveyed in the above posted polls.
    Actually, you don't know your own Bible:

    Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he leith with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    Romans 1:32 - "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenadntbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

    And this is why the NT and the OT absolutely contradict each other.

    I have addressed this accordingly.

    No, it doesn't and again, you do not see my point. You're all blinded by this fixation with being scared of Islam. Calm down.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Actually, you don't know your own Bible:

    Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man also lie with mankind, as he leith with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." And this is why the NT and the OT absolutely contradict each other.

    I have addressed this accordingly.

    No, it doesn't and again, you do not see my point. You're all blinded by this fixation with being scared of Islam. Calm down.
    It is clear that you are the one who doesn't know the Bible:

    http://www.gaychristian101.com/Chris...Under-Law.html

    The OT was invalidated/ fulfilled by the return of Jesus. It no longer applies

    God considers all sin worthy of death by default; not just homosexuals acts, but nowhere does he give Christians permission to act as the moral police force of the world on his behalf. We are to show love to sinners, not punish them. Judgement is clearly outlined as God's remit alone
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    It is clear that you are the one who doesn't know the Bible:

    http://www.gaychristian101.com/Chris...Under-Law.html

    The OT was invalidated/ fulfilled by the return of Jesus. It no longer applies
    Oh, don't give me that *******s. People follow the Bible through and through. The Pope refers to the Old Testament as do many Christian leaders. Stop.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Oh, don't give me that *******s. People follow the Bible through and through. The Pope refers to the Old Testament as do many Christian leaders. Stop.
    Christians today are under no obligation to follow all the OT commands as your faith in Jesus fulfils them by default. We are given only two commandments to follow in the NT: 'Love God' and 'Love thy neighbour'

    Some of the stories in the OT are there to teach us about following God, however, like I've said before, Christians are under no obligation whatsoever to follow the 613 commands of the OT or else Jesus dying on the cross would have been pointless. The Law is there to show what Sin is and how man could never live up to it

    Edit: Catholicism is full of so many non-biblical beliefs and teachings most protestants do not consider it a branch of Christianity anyway. Not all Christians follow the Pope either
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Christians today are under no obligation to follow all the OT commands as your faith in Jesus fulfils them by default. We are given only two commandments to follow in the NT: 'Love God' and 'Love thy neighbour'

    Some of the stories in the OT are there to teach us about following God, however, like I've said before, Christians are under no obligation whatsoever to follow the 613 commands of the OT or else Jesus dying on the cross would have been pointless. The Law is there to show what Sin is and how man could never live up to it
    The truth is, you have no idea what to follow. You can follow a blend of things; this is why denominations exist and Christians all have varying opinions. It's interpretation; that is yours. The same applies to Islam. You have proved my point now let it be.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    The truth is, you have no idea what to follow. You can follow a blend of things; this is why denominations exist and Christians all have varying opinions. It's interpretation; that is yours. The same applies to Islam. You have proved my point now let it be.
    It isn't interpretation, it is a universal doctrine of NT scripture, how many more verses do I have to show you?

    1. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14.

    2. Christians are dead to the law." Romans 7:4.
    3. "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.
    4. Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6.
    5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.
    6. For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11.
    7. For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13.
    8. For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14.
    9. For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14.
    10. "When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13, The Amplified Version
    11. "And after that he said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. Thus he put an end to the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9, Lamsa Translation

    (Copy and pasted because this guy does a better job of explaining than I can)
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    It isn't interpretation, it is a universal doctrine of NT scripture, how many more verses do I have to show you?
    1. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14.
    2. Christians are dead to the law." Romans 7:4.
    3. "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.
    4. Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6.
    5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.
    6. For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11.
    7. For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13.
    8. For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14.
    9. For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14.
    10. "When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13, The Amplified Version
    11. "And after that he said, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. Thus he put an end to the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:9, Lamsa Translation

    (Copy and pasted because this guy does a better job of explaining than I can)
    Saying the Bible can't be interpreted is an interpretation in itself. Saying the Old Testament is not valid and should not be followed as Christian law is also an interpretation. People bring many arguments back to the Old Testament throughout and I believe even you have before. Adam and Eve is one example commonly used.

    Let's agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Saying the Bible can't be interpreted is an interpretation in itself. Saying the Old Testament is not valid and should not be followed as Christian law is also an interpretation. People bring many arguments back to the Old Testament throughout and I believe even you have before. Adam and Eve is one example commonly used.

    Let's agree to disagree.
    I never claimed some parts of it couldn't be interpreted, but most Christian branches agree on the fact that the Christian under the rule of the Holy Spirit is no longer under the OT law. Those that disagree tend to deny other facets of scripture such as Jesus' divinity. It is just a fact and I have given you the verses to prove it.

    Using the OT in an argument and carrying out its laws are two entirely different things. I might use that Leviticus verse that you yourself quoted to explain to someone that God sees homosexual acts as sin, does that mean I or God condone people running around shoving homosexuals off buildings? Of course not! Any Christian who condones the death of homosexuals or any other sinner is a hypocrite and a liar, because God considers all sin as worthy of death.

    Edit: I said the Law was invalid for Christians, not the whole of the OT
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    (Original post by Angry Bird)
    getting rid of the fastest growing religion, good luck with that, you're gonna need it! :cute:
    We have the technology, we just need the balls and the will.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Christians today are under no obligation to follow all the OT commands as your faith in Jesus fulfils them by default. We are given only two commandments to follow in the NT: 'Love God' and 'Love thy neighbour'

    Some of the stories in the OT are there to teach us about following God, however, like I've said before, Christians are under no obligation whatsoever to follow the 613 commands of the OT or else Jesus dying on the cross would have been pointless. The Law is there to show what Sin is and how man could never live up to it

    Edit: Catholicism is full of so many non-biblical beliefs and teachings most protestants do not consider it a branch of Christianity anyway. Not all Christians follow the Pope either
    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)
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    (Original post by TheTruthTeller)
    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)
    Already explained this to someone else

    http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html
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    Lol they surveyed 1.3 Billion , seems legit lmao
    • Thread Starter
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    (Original post by Jebedee)
    We have the technology, we just need the balls and the will.
    I always laugh when muslims tell me how none of us infidels/kafirs would be alive if islam was violent and hateful or how it would be impossible to stop the ''world's fastest growing religion''. I don't think they realize the power balance in the 21st century, they still live in middle ages or something. Like I said earlier, it is not a technical issue, but a moral one.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Christians today are under no obligation to follow all the OT commands as your faith in Jesus fulfils them by default. We are given only two commandments to follow in the NT: 'Love God' and 'Love thy neighbour'

    Some of the stories in the OT are there to teach us about following God, however, like I've said before, Christians are under no obligation whatsoever to follow the 613 commands of the OT or else Jesus dying on the cross would have been pointless. The Law is there to show what Sin is and how man could never live up to it

    Edit: Catholicism is full of so many non-biblical beliefs and teachings most protestants do not consider it a branch of Christianity anyway. Not all Christians follow the Pope either
    I have so much respect for you right now for having an understanding of your faith. It is truly extraordinary how many people think they can dismiss religion without the most elementary understanding of it.

    I presume by you saying Catholicism is full of many non-biblical beliefs, you are referring to its equal reverence of tradition which contains many acts not found in the bible?

    On the subject of moderate Muslims, there is something seriously wrong with anyone here who even tries to justify things like honor killings. Corporal punishment I have some rudimentary sympathy for (but not quite to the extremity of Sharia) but some of this stuff such as killing apostates is simply disgusting.

    There is a serious education deficit by the looks of it, and it must be addressed to prevent suffering in the future.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    I have so much respect for you right now for having an understanding of your faith. It is truly extraordinary how many people think they can dismiss religion without the most elementary understanding of it.

    I presume by you saying Catholicism is full of many non-biblical beliefs, you are referring to its equal reverence of tradition which contains many acts not found in the bible?

    On the subject of moderate Muslims, there is something seriously wrong with anyone here who even tries to justify things like honor killings. Corporal punishment I have some rudimentary sympathy for (but not quite to the extremity of Sharia) but some of this stuff such as killing apostates is simply disgusting.

    There is a serious education deficit by the looks of it, and it must be addressed to prevent suffering in the future.
    Thank you, Dante, your words mean a lot to me

    Yes, I am referring to all the man-made things that Catholics adhere to which have no basis in the Bible itself. Stuff like infant baptism (makes for a nice ceremony but is completely obsolete spiritually) and praying to angels and saints (it's downright idolatry, we are told in scripture to worship and pray to God and only God) The catholic church requirement for priests to be and remain completely celibate is also unscriptural, if you look at the qualifications for deacon hood in the NT it says clearly the man is to be the 'husband of one wife'

    The entire concept of having priests interceding on behalf of people is blasphemous and insulting to what Jesus did on the cross. All Christians are part of the 'priesthood of believers' (i.e: All Christians are priests and interceders) Jesus is the only one capable of interceding to God on your behalf, not some dude wearing a silly hat.

    There are many more things wrong with the catholic church that I could go on and on about but I'll stop ranting for now

    I don't think Ivybridge was defending honour killings, he is just defending the right of muslims to believe what they want as long as they don't turn it into action
 
 
 
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