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    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    Q: Do the Shia belive it permissible to curse the shaykhayn privately?

    @Tawheed
    I don't do it. Afaik, in Islamic shariah, what is done openly is what matters. If someone openly promotes say, apostasy, or homosexuality, as per shariah in the right circumstances, that is punishable.

    Afaik, in any shia gathering, in shia mosques, in shia video's, in books written by shia's, in shia's on forums, in shia's in real life, in shia's on podcasts, it's forbidden to ask Allah to remove his mercy , even if you believe that individual wronged Rasullah s.a.w and disobeyed Allah swt. On shia forums, you can get auto-banned for doing it. We recognise the fact the Ummah has divergent historical views, and a large body strongly holds a certian view, as well as how respected these individuals are.

    If someone does it privatly, it's outside shariah, it's out of the public sphere, it does not concern anyone, and if they have commited a sin, Allah will punish them if they do not repent or if he does not forgive them, similar to other sins.

    Obvious exception is the tyrant, Yazid, whom you and i both dislike.
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    Don't get me wrong but I have seen some shias that I know who do bid'ah. Yes some sunnis might too. By the way I am none, I call myself just Muslim.

    When I looked into shiasm, unfortunately there were a lot of things I did not approve of and was really puzzled to how someone can accept it and call themselve a Muslim. Because it is really clear for me that it is bid'ah. For example, including Ali Ibn Talib R.A in the shahadah. That was a no no to me straight away.

    However, I do know that not all those Muslims that call themselves shias approve of this. As I do know some that are totally against some of its teaching and say they are different kinds.

    Whenever I encounter a sunni or shia, the only thing I say is that what did our prophet S.A.W call himself I will stick to that which ofcourse is "Muslim". People do say admit that you are sunni because you approve of Aisha r.a and the 4 caliphs. But I say well looks like that is just what Muslims should be believe then as Ali R.A was not against them himself right?

    Most importantly, those that are Muslims should not even try to compare themselves to or judge the ummah at the time of the prophet S.A.W. Hence please look at yourselves first, those sahabas died as Muslims and had way more Imaan than any of us would ever dream of.
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    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    Q: Do the Shia belive it permissible to curse the shaykhayn privately?

    @Tawheed
    Just to point out, you often find speakers talking about the 'kufr' of Abu Talib r.a, or that he is having, auzubillah, his brains boiling in the fire of hell.

    Some sunni's, as well as all shia's reject that. Including Sh.Hamzah yusuf.

    I'm not going to go around and make takfir on someone who has that belief, even though i and a minority of sunni's consider him among the greatest of the sahaba r.a.

    I view it as a tragedy, a historical dispute, and one that should be discussed sensitively.

    There is a difference between mocking the prophet and sahaba like charlie hedbo, based on kufr and to mock, and two large bodies of the ummah simply disagreeing, with the purest of intentions, due to historical methods, books of hadith and so on.
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    (Original post by h333)
    x.
    Dear brother/sister in Islam,

    InshAllah after my exams, we can delve deeper into the reasonable points raised.

    But, just out of interest (i ask this to a lot of people) - where is Allah swt?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Dear brother/sister in Islam,

    InshAllah after my exams, we can delve deeper into the reasonable points raised.

    But, just out of interest (i ask this to a lot of people) - where is Allah swt?
    Asaalamu Alaikum brother (peace be upon you)

    Ofcourse I will be glad to read your views or statements. One thing I have to make clear I do not want to offend anyone. For me it is important that I stick to the sunnah of the prophet s.a.w. and the Qu'ran.

    I am not very knowledgable too tbh as most are on here or in ISOC masha'Allah but I am striving to learn and gain as much as I can in the right way.

    As for the question, I believe that one should not think about that too much as our aim is not to figure out his physical location but to recognise and aknowledge him.

    "Surely Allah is independent of all the worlds." (Qur'an 29:6)

    He is beyond time and space so I do not want to limit him to his own creation.

    What about you?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I don't do it. Afaik, in Islamic shariah, what is done openly is what matters.
    I would disagree. I believe two issues have been conflated here, punishment of a particular sin, and what my question was directed toward which was "Is it permissible amongst shia" i.e. would an individual be sinful for it. The reason being I do not see much cohesion amongst the shia on this issue. Those like Murtaza Motahara who I have been told praised Umar for his justice and those like Fadlullah who said May Allah give Abu Bakr Ridwaan are so starkly contrasted with those like the Shirazis, and some narrations in your books like the narration in al-Kaafi with Sh. Ja'far al-Safiq supposedly cursing them.

    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Afaik, in any shia gathering, in shia mosques, in shia video's, in books written by shia's, in shia's on forums, in shia's in real life, in shia's on podcasts, it's forbidden to ask Allah to remove his mercy , even if you believe that individual wronged Rasullah s.a.w and disobeyed Allah swt.
    This is why I ask, you say one thing and many others say another.

    (Original post by Tawheed)
    On shia forums, you can get auto-banned for doing it. We recognise the fact the Ummah has divergent historical views, and a large body strongly holds a certian view, as well as how respected these individuals are.
    As above.

    If someone does it privatly, it's outside shariah, it's out of the public sphere, it does not concern anyone, and if they have commited a sin, Allah will punish them if they do not repent or if he does not forgive them, similar to other sins.
    As per the first section of my response.

    Obvious exception is the tyrant, Yazid, whom you and i both dislike.
    Indeed.

    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Just to point out, you often find speakers talking about the 'kufr' of Abu Talib r.a, or that he is having, auzubillah, his brains boiling in the fire of hell.
    The majority of opinion amongst Sunnis is that he died without accepting Islam. Others say that he was muslim and a third party refrains from speaking about the issue and has a policy of non committal.

    I'm not going to go around and make takfir on someone who has that belief, even though i and a minority of sunni's consider him among the greatest of the sahaba r.a.
    There is a stark difference between takfeer on the two shaykhs and takfeer on Abu Talib in our view. The first we do believe is an issue of Aqeedah and completely impermissible. The latter is an issue of historical reports

    and one that should be discussed sensitively.
    No doubt.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    X
    My contention is thus, we see amongst the shia those who would mock the sahaaba and send la'na upon them like the aforementioned Shirazis and the narrations among your books about the issue, then we see individuals like yourself making post after post about the impermissiblilty of said acts. What I want is that individuals be open in their beliefs, how do your maraji' reconcile your saying it is impermissible to send la'na with those narrations?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Twelver and Zaidi Shia's, this is not including subparts of alawi's (not sure their beliefs), nor Ahmadi's (simply because there are two types of ahmadi's, and i am unsure here myself) as well as sunni's affirm:

    1. There is one God - not because he is one the way i am 'one' human, but he is the very embodiment of tawheed, the one, the absolute - the only.
    2. He has no image, or likeness.
    3. Muhammed s.a.w is the last and final messenger of Allah s.a.w
    4. The Quran is the unchanged, unadulterated book. Any scholar in either madhab, the one-offs, or any hadith (proven to be weak) which says otherwise is not the Ijma or a weak narration, or one taken out of context.
    5. Prophets, Ahlulbayt, wives, are creatures of God. They eat, they have bodily functions, they get sick. Muhammed s.a.w, or Ali ibn abi Talib a.s is not even dust or anything compared to Allah swt - nothing compares to him. Our love and proximity to the prophets, the family, the sahaba is only in condition of their rank and piety towards Allah swt.
    6. Salah, fasting, zakah, hajj , though variances occur i.e shia's and many maliki's pray with arms by the sides, on the whole it's very similar.
    7. Qiyamah, the day of judgement


    I could really go on.

    This is not to say, there are some fundamental differences, for example, shia's believe that God has no form, and thus can and will never be seen for instance. Sunni muslims regard companions as a whole as righteous, and refrain from questioning the actions of companions.

    Shia's also respect the companions, but they do not see them as one body. They classify them into groups, those who were loyal, those generally trustworthy, those who diverted from this, those who clashed with the ahlulbayt a.s , those who did so but learned the error and so on (just rough examples). In a sense, we as shia's look at them as any other group or body of people, in the sense that, like human beings, like the companions of past prophets and like a big body and group of people, you have mixtures of varying degree's of people among them.

    If we look at the top 10 hadith narrators in sunni works, among them are ibn Abbas r.a, Jabir ibn abdillah r.a, abu said al kuhdri r.a, Abdullah ibn Masud r.a, and if we go into the top 12, we begin to find Ali ibn Abi talib a.s afaik.

    And these are companions generally revered and respected by shia muslims. (among many others).

    But i won't sugar coat it, we do not hold some of the other names in as high regard.
    Why won't you become a Sunni and follow 90%+ of the Muslims? Why will you follow an ideology which disrespects the noble Sahaba? Will a shia ever name their children with the same name of the following noble companions Ummar, Abu bakr and Aisha (May Allah be pleased with them and increase their ranks in the hereafter and guide anyone who has got an atom worth of disrespect for them).
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    Please remember to not attack or insult any individual here.
    The aim here should be to find common ground and understanding.
    That should be everyone's aim.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    . Sunni muslims regard companions as a whole as righteous, and refrain from questioning the actions of companions.
    What exactly do you mean by this?
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    Salams guys, i'm heading back to revision, give me time inshAllah a little later to reply to everything.
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    (Original post by Kraixo)
    Why won't you become a Sunni and follow 90%+ of the Muslims? Why will you follow an ideology which disrespects the noble Sahaba? Will a shia ever name their children with the same name of the following noble companions Ummar, Abu bakr and Aisha (May Allah be pleased with them and increase their ranks in the hereafter and guide anyone who has got an atom worth of disrespect for them).
    I believe Allah swt can not be described by direction, is not above anywhere. I believe he has no form, nor confine, nor limited contingency to be envisioned by my senses. I believe Allah swt is above change, and therefore can not 'ascend' or 'descend'. I believe that the essence of Tawheed neccessitates that he is one by his essence, in the sense non-divisible. He can not have hands, feet, etc even if i affirm they are not like our own.

    This is why i have named myself Tawheed. For i found the most satisfying and logical appreciation of Tawheed as taught by the Muhammed s.a.w family of Muhammed a.s

    I also do respect noble Sahaba, but i do not see them as one body. They differ in ranks. My judgement on a companion is purely based on their obidience to Allah swt, Rasullah s.a.w, and the family of the holy prophet s.a.w and other loyal sahaba r.a. Our historical sources differ , and so our views on shaba differ. Let us agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Twelver and Zaidi Shia's, this is not including subparts of alawi's (not sure their beliefs), nor Ahmadi's (simply because there are two types of ahmadi's, and i am unsure here myself) as well as sunni's affirm:

    1. There is one God - not because he is one the way i am 'one' human, but he is the very embodiment of tawheed, the one, the absolute - the only.
    2. He has no image, or likeness.
    3. Muhammed s.a.w is the last and final messenger of Allah s.a.w
    4. The Quran is the unchanged, unadulterated book. Any scholar in either madhab, the one-offs, or any hadith (proven to be weak) which says otherwise is not the Ijma or a weak narration, or one taken out of context.
    5. Prophets, Ahlulbayt, wives, are creatures of God. They eat, they have bodily functions, they get sick. Muhammed s.a.w, or Ali ibn abi Talib a.s is not even dust or anything compared to Allah swt - nothing compares to him. Our love and proximity to the prophets, the family, the sahaba is only in condition of their rank and piety towards Allah swt.
    6. Salah, fasting, zakah, hajj , though variances occur i.e shia's and many maliki's pray with arms by the sides, on the whole it's very similar.
    7. Qiyamah, the day of judgement


    I could really go on.

    This is not to say, there are some fundamental differences, for example, shia's believe that God has no form, and thus can and will never be seen for instance. Sunni muslims regard companions as a whole as righteous, and refrain from questioning the actions of companions.

    Shia's also respect the companions, but they do not see them as one body. They classify them into groups, those who were loyal, those generally trustworthy, those who diverted from this, those who clashed with the ahlulbayt a.s , those who did so but learned the error and so on (just rough examples). In a sense, we as shia's look at them as any other group or body of people, in the sense that, like human beings, like the companions of past prophets and like a big body and group of people, you have mixtures of varying degree's of people among them.

    If we look at the top 10 hadith narrators in sunni works, among them are ibn Abbas r.a, Jabir ibn abdillah r.a, abu said al kuhdri r.a, Abdullah ibn Masud r.a, and if we go into the top 12, we begin to find Ali ibn Abi talib a.s afaik.

    And these are companions generally revered and respected by shia muslims. (among many others).

    But i won't sugar coat it, we do not hold some of the other names in as high regard.
    Are there many branches of Shia? Do the majority hold the same beliefs on the role and status of Ali? Is the prayer the same within the community?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Dear brother/sister in Islam,

    InshAllah after my exams, we can delve deeper into the reasonable points raised.

    But, just out of interest (i ask this to a lot of people) - where is Allah swt?
    Salam

    The sunni belief is that Allah (SWT) is above the heavens and descends to the lowest heaven every night, when one-third of the night is left.

    It was narrated by al-Bukhaari and by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

    We also believe that Allah has two feet, hands etc. however they do not resemble the normal human attributes but rather they are in a form which only befits Allah (SWT).

    [He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. [Quran 42:11]

    I've put some ayats and hadith for evidence in the spoiler
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim from Anas ibn Maalik, according to which the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Hell will keep saying, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’ until the Lord of Glory, may He be blessed and exalted, places His foot on it, then it will say, ‘Enough, enough, by Your glory!’ And all its parts will be integrated together.

    Allah (Exalted be He) also has said to Iblis (Satan): "What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands." [Surah Sad, 38: 75]

    He (Glorified be He) also says: "They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand."
    [Surah Al-Zumar, 39: 67]
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Twelver and Zaidi Shia's, this is not including subparts of alawi's (not sure their beliefs), nor Ahmadi's (simply because there are two types of ahmadi's, and i am unsure here myself) as well as sunni's affirm:

    1. There is one God - not because he is one the way i am 'one' human, but he is the very embodiment of tawheed, the one, the absolute - the only.
    2. He has no image, or likeness.
    3. Muhammed s.a.w is the last and final messenger of Allah s.a.w
    4. The Quran is the unchanged, unadulterated book. Any scholar in either madhab, the one-offs, or any hadith (proven to be weak) which says otherwise is not the Ijma or a weak narration, or one taken out of context.
    5. Prophets, Ahlulbayt, wives, are creatures of God. They eat, they have bodily functions, they get sick. Muhammed s.a.w, or Ali ibn abi Talib a.s is not even dust or anything compared to Allah swt - nothing compares to him. Our love and proximity to the prophets, the family, the sahaba is only in condition of their rank and piety towards Allah swt.
    6. Salah, fasting, zakah, hajj , though variances occur i.e shia's and many maliki's pray with arms by the sides, on the whole it's very similar.
    7. Qiyamah, the day of judgement


    I could really go on.

    This is not to say, there are some fundamental differences, for example, shia's believe that God has no form, and thus can and will never be seen for instance. Sunni muslims regard companions as a whole as righteous, and refrain from questioning the actions of companions.

    Shia's also respect the companions, but they do not see them as one body. They classify them into groups, those who were loyal, those generally trustworthy, those who diverted from this, those who clashed with the ahlulbayt a.s , those who did so but learned the error and so on (just rough examples). In a sense, we as shia's look at them as any other group or body of people, in the sense that, like human beings, like the companions of past prophets and like a big body and group of people, you have mixtures of varying degree's of people among them.

    If we look at the top 10 hadith narrators in sunni works, among them are ibn Abbas r.a, Jabir ibn abdillah r.a, abu said al kuhdri r.a, Abdullah ibn Masud r.a, and if we go into the top 12, we begin to find Ali ibn Abi talib a.s afaik.

    And these are companions generally revered and respected by shia muslims. (among many others).

    But i won't sugar coat it, we do not hold some of the other names in as high regard.
    So this brings me to my next question,Shias are no fond of the other companions of the prophet,like Muslims are? And what's the deal with Aisha?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I believe Allah swt can not be described by direction, is not above anywhere. I believe he has no form, nor confine, nor limited contingency to be envisioned by my senses. I believe Allah swt is above change, and therefore can not 'ascend' or 'descend'. I believe that the essence of Tawheed neccessitates that he is one by his essence, in the sense non-divisible. He can not have hands, feet, etc even if i affirm they are not like our own.

    This is why i have named myself Tawheed. For i found the most satisfying and logical appreciation of Tawheed as taught by the Muhammed s.a.w family of Muhammed a.s

    I also do respect noble Sahaba, but i do not see them as one body. They differ in ranks. My judgement on a companion is purely based on their obidience to Allah swt, Rasullah s.a.w, and the family of the holy prophet s.a.w and other loyal sahaba r.a. Our historical sources differ , and so our views on shaba differ. Let us agree to disagree.
    Yes I agree that we disagree. But do your research as far as your first paragraph is concerned, look into the tawheed and aqeedah of Ahle sunnah wal jamaah inshallah it's the only branch of islam which is on the right theology by being on the way of the Prophet SAW.

    The problem is like you said that our sources of information are different. I wonder if any of the Shia sources on the sahaba can be proven authentic with a direct chain to the Prophet. They are fabricated, to the point that they go against the Quran. What is mutah, it has no basis in islam yet shia practises it, Yes I know some of the evidences the shias try to bring forward to legalise such fornication in disuigse, but the evidences are fabricated it is a creation of the shias of a way to furfill their desires the illegal way and fabricated narrations (Fabricated narrations are a lie against the Prophet SAW which is a grave sin within it self) satisfy the masses as they follow blindly without looking for the evidences. Many shias have cut their links to shiaism once they look into sunni theology from the sunni scholars themself instead of being preached about them in their mosques where innovated practises take place.
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    shia > sunni
    thats all you have to know
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Are there many branches of Shia? Do the majority hold the same beliefs on the role and status of Ali? Is the prayer the same within the community?
    The main branch, which 85-90% of shia's are comprises of twelver shia, otherwise known as ithnasheri's, or jafferi's (same synonym).

    The remaining 10 or so percent comprises of zaidi's and other groups.

    I'm not as well versed in the other groups to comment with any certianty. Zaydi shia's are in many ways closer to sunni's, but still regard Ali Ibn Abi Talib as the first imam a.s
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    (Original post by alirs)
    shia > sunni
    thats all you have to know
    That's not how we should go forward in dialouge brother. How is this going to convince anyone, or open the doors of dialouge, reconciliation, and understanding?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    So this brings me to my next question,Shias are no fond of the other companions of the prophet,like Muslims are? And what's the deal with Aisha?
    The shia position of the companions is the same as the Qurans position. There are many we love, and revere. Many we do not hold in as high regard, but respect. Many we do not pass comment on, due to lack of knowledge or we leave judgement to Allah swt. And then there are those who we believe disobeyed the noble messenger , Muhammed s.a.w, and Allah swt, and his ahlulbayt a.s and the loyal among the sahaba r.a.

    We view the Sahaba as human beings, and not just that, we view them as what you naturally would find in any large community of humans, from the previous prophets, to muslims of the latter day. Among them gems, among them good people, among them people of mixed character, among them people who became disloyal, etc.

    If you look at the top ten hadith narrators in sunni schools of thought, you will find jabir ibn abdillah r.a, abu sai'd al khudri r.a, ibn abbas r.a, abdullad ibn masud r.a, who narrated an enormous bulk of the sunni hadiths we find in existence. These key companions are respected and or revered by shia's. Though we sometimes affirm false things were attributed to them.

    We love and revere many many more companions, one of them is Muhammed ibn Abu Bakr, the son of the caliph, Abu Bakr. Shia's revere and love him for his loyalty to treading on the path and the sunnah , and for his loyalty to Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. Though we have disagreements with actions commited by his father, we have enormous love and respect for him.

    In terms of Umulmumineen Aisha, i'll create another post and explain our differences there.

    But just to summarise my points , if i may:

    In a sense, shia's do not hate the sahaba, because the sahaba are not one body or homogenous group, where one sahaba speaks for all, or one acts for all. They were a community of human beings. We agree with many, and we disagree with others.

    We also do not hate the wives, because the wives are not one body. We respect ones like Lady Khadija r.a, Umm Salama r.a, Umm Sauda r.a, and many other wives of his.

    Our position on them is purely by virtue of sources we deem reliable, introspection, analysis, and pursuit of the true sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, and ascertaining who we can trust, and who we must pause and investigate further on.

    You will find that many sunni brothers/sisters class hadrath Abu Talib r.a as a kaffir, and make takfir upon him, and consider a narrations stating that he will be in hellfire as authentic.

    Shai's absolutely disagree with that, as do a minority of sunni's, who deem him to not only be a muslim, but one of the closest helpers of Rasullah s.a.w, who gave everything for him and without him, Islam would not have made it through the dark early days.

    You're not going to find me calling those muslims i have a historical dispute with as kaffirs though. Or trying to stir up fitnah on the I-Soc.

    I'm not referring to ibn fulaan here, who hasn't done that, and has used the proper means and addressed it here nor al farhan(who showed good character by making this thread and avoiding discord on the I SOC). I am ofcourse, referring to other users i won't name, who unfortunately i remember as being tolerant once. I have to say this incase people think i am referring to them.
 
 
 
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