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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    I admire your optimism. One day however, you will learn that sometimes people having a choice is not necessarily a good thing. I really hope that if all hell rains down, you are unaffected but when you are casting your vote, do think about my job and the two small children and a wife it supports. Democracy can hang if anything should happen to them.

    Ta.
    Don't patronise. I've already learned that having a choice is never a bad thing. It's the choices we make that are either good or bad.

    I can't see why all hell should rain down at all if we leave the EU. And what happens if all hell rains down if we vote to remain? The EU's not a democracy, so what then? The only course of action I can see will be civil disobedience or revolt. Even if you do agree with it now, it's a little naive to think the EU will always act in the European population's interest. Given the way it's backed by corporate and banking interests, and the way its expenses and cronyism system operates, it does not auger well, imo.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    Don't patronise. I've already learned that having a choice is never a bad thing. It's the choices we make that are either good or bad.

    I can't see why all hell should rain down at all if we leave the EU. And what happens if all hell rains down if we vote to remain? The EU's not a democracy, so what then? The only course of action I can see will be civil disobedience or revolt. Even if you do agree with it now, it's a little naive to think the EU will always act in the European population's interest. Given the way it's backed by corporate and banking interests, and the way its expenses and cronyism system operates, it does not auger well, imo.
    Fair enough. I just think voting out on the basis of democratic deficit is a little naive, especially when issues such as the economy and immigration are very real and have a genuine impact on everyday peoples' lives. All hell may well rain down if we stay, but probably not. Voting out is a vote into the unknown, the uncharted and certainly the land of unintended consequences.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Fair enough. I just think voting out on the basis of democratic deficit is a little naive, especially when issues such as the economy and immigration are very real and have a genuine impact on everyday peoples' lives. All hell may well rain down if we stay, but probably not. Voting out is a vote into the unknown, the uncharted and certainly the land of unintended consequences.
    Why is voting out on the basis of the democratic deficit at all naive? It's an issue every bit as real as the economy, immigration or any other issue.

    Voting out is not into the unknown. That's just a crap idea from the remain camp. Voting out is a vote for allowing decisions for our country to be made here without interference from an anti-democratic organisation, and anything Parliament cannot control it is free to react to as it sees fit.

    Imo, the unknown, the uncharted and the unintended consequences, is a remain vote. The status quo is not on offer and it is not a democracy. Future generations may well rue the day we voted to remain if that's what happens. We're hoping that future bureaucrats will act in their best interests.
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    I think Tamora is talking lots of sense by saying staying in the EU has far greater risks. It is a shrinking market, compared to the rest of the world, and yet ties it's members to it so we aren't allowed to make our own trade deals (if we leave, we would regain our seat on the WTO). Within a decade, think what other countries could be part of it; including Turkey which effectively brings our border to Syria and Iraq.

    The most credible argument of the Remain campaigners is that leaving would create uncertainty: they may be right about that but it will be short lived, and afterwards we can govern ourselves and be prosperous. There would be a period of negotiation with the EU for 2 years before we actually leave, and no other sovereign country in the world has said they would not make trade deals with us.

    Please, Vote leave.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    Why is voting out on the basis of the democratic deficit at all naive? It's an issue every bit as real as the economy, immigration or any other issue.
    It isn't real though. It is totally abstract and generally irrelevant. You have one vote in 30 odd million. If you live in a safe seat and disagree with your MP, your vote is worthless. And even if you aren't in a safe seat, your vote is still pretty worthless in the grand scheme of things.

    But if the economy is scraping the barrel and you can't get a job, or house price inflation means you can't afford a home, or the cost of living is such that you can't have a family - they are real things that impact you. And you can vote until you are blue in the face, but chances are whoever you vote for will not fix any of those issues. i.e. it is pointless.

    The idea of democracy is laudable, but it doesn't feed you and it doesn't put a roof over your head. If leaving the EU sees my life worse off, what is the point in having democracy or sovereignty? How can you justify to me and my worse-off life that it was worth it?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    It isn't real though. It is totally abstract and generally irrelevant. You have one vote in 30 odd million. If you live in a safe seat and disagree with your MP, your vote is worthless. And even if you aren't in a safe seat, your vote is still pretty worthless in the grand scheme of things.

    But if the economy is scraping the barrel and you can't get a job, or house price inflation means you can't afford a home, or the cost of living is such that you can't have a family - they are real things that impact you. And you can vote until you are blue in the face, but chances are whoever you vote for will not fix any of those issues. i.e. it is pointless.

    The idea of democracy is laudable, but it doesn't feed you and it doesn't put a roof over your head. If leaving the EU sees my life worse off, what is the point in having democracy or sovereignty? How can you justify to me and my worse-off life that it was worth it?
    It's very real. We have 30 odd million votes between us and we choose the party that forms the government. My vote doesn't speak for the country and nor should it. Those 30 million voters also choose politicians that hold the government to account. Though, admittedly we need people who do the job better than the current crop.

    European electors choose politicians who can be overruled by the European Commission, and have no power to initiate legislation. You're effectively suggesting we are better off letting Goldman Sachs sponsored bureaucrats who are not accountable to any electorate anywhere decide how we live! That we elect the politicians we send to the European Council is no help when, even if they do vote in the UK public's interest, they can be easily outvoted.

    If you're satisfied with the way we are governed, by all means vote remain. I'm not and I think we'd be better off, economically and socially, in being governed by people answerable to the electorate, even though that only happens only once every five years. And who said democracy puts a roof over my head? A lot of hard work and a little luck does that.

    I can't justify something that hasn't even happened, nor do I see the need to justify it when it's unlikely.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    It's very real. We have 30 odd million votes between us and we choose the party that forms the government. My vote doesn't speak for the country and nor should it. Those 30 million voters also choose politicians that hold the government to account. Though, admittedly we need people who do the job better than the current crop.

    European electors choose politicians who can be overruled by the European Commission, and have no power to initiate legislation. You're effectively suggesting we are better off letting Goldman Sachs sponsored bureaucrats who are not accountable to any electorate anywhere decide how we live! That we elect the politicians we send to the European Council is no help when, even if they do vote in the UK public's interest, they can be easily outvoted.

    If you're satisfied with the way we are governed, by all means vote remain. I'm not and I think we'd be better off, economically and socially, in being governed by people answerable to the electorate, even though that only happens only once every five years. And who said democracy puts a roof over my head? A lot of hard work and a little luck does that.

    I can't justify something that hasn't even happened, nor do I see the need to justify it when it's unlikely.
    Fair enough. But by your own admission, surely the way to change things is to vote for people who will make those changes? Running away won't solve anything. I can't think of any circumstance in life where you are better off alone. In any situation you are always stronger if you are part of a team. The thing that saddens me about this debate is that it is framed as the EU vs the UK. In reality, it is much more complicated. The UK influences the EU in a positive manner and we gain hugely from it. Sure there are niggles and negatives, but they are dwarfed compared to the huge benefits of being in a big club. Can you think of any scenarios where you are better off alone?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Fair enough. But by your own admission, surely the way to change things is to vote for people who will make those changes? Running away won't solve anything. I can't think of any circumstance in life where you are better off alone. In any situation you are always stronger if you are part of a team. The thing that saddens me about this debate is that it is framed as the EU vs the UK. In reality, it is much more complicated. The UK influences the EU in a positive manner and we gain hugely from it. Sure there are niggles and negatives, but they are dwarfed compared to the huge benefits of being in a big club. Can you think of any scenarios where you are better off alone?
    If 40 years of EU membership has taught us anything it's that reform of the type the British might want is not going to happen. People have been trying to reform the EU for as long as it's been in existence and it hasn't happened. We won't be running away, we're stopping the crazy practice of banging our heads against brick walls.

    And the alone/isolated/pulling the drawbridge up stuff comes straight from the remain playbook. We'll be as alone as most other independent countries, ie fully engaged in the world. I don't see that there are any advantages to being part of an expensive, corrupt, bureaucratic 'club' that are worth the price.
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    Fair enough. I guess time will tell? But if you are going to level claims of Europe being corrupt, anti-democratic and bureaucratic, surely you can level the same at the UK? We have an archaic first-past-the-post system that doesn't work, a Hereditary Unelected House of Lords, a Hereditary Head of State, masses of unelected quangos and a political class straight from Oxbridge on all sides.

    Which is why I don't understand the anger at the idea that we have no say over matters in Europe. We don't have a say in the UK either, but somehow that doesn't bother anyone.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Fair enough. I guess time will tell? But if you are going to level claims of Europe being corrupt, anti-democratic and bureaucratic, surely you can level the same at the UK? We have an archaic first-past-the-post system that doesn't work, a Hereditary Unelected House of Lords, a Hereditary Head of State, masses of unelected quangos and a political class straight from Oxbridge on all sides.

    Which is why I don't understand the anger at the idea that we have no say over matters in Europe. We don't have a say in the UK either, but somehow that doesn't bother anyone.
    The EU takes corruption, anti-democracy and bureaucracy to a whole new level. FPTP worked well enough in a two party system. It's now that we have a multi-party system that it has fallen short. Our hereditary head of state has no political power, we no longer have hereditaries sitting in the HofL, and our quangoes implement EU legislation without the need for debate in Parliament and were set up under pro-EU governments. That politicians are Oxbridge educated is not per se a problem for me.

    I don't think anyone is saying the UK system is ideal, but that's no reason to allow it to be overriden by a system which is anti-democratic. It's out membership of the EU that prevents our politicians from changing policies, not the Queen, the Lords or the FPTP system. Of course we also need to elect politicians who want to change policies. I'm not sure the present crop has the will for that.
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    (Original post by Tamora)
    I'm not sure the present crop has the will for that.
    So we are out of the EU but in the common market, so free movement will still be possible. What would you change? I am yet to hear what the leave camp would actually change.
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    No way I'm spending an hour of my time watching that ****
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    (Original post by Alexion)
    No way I'm spending an hour of my time watching that ****
    Why not?
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Why not?
    I want to watch things that are either factual or entertaining.

    I know that that will be neither.
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    (Original post by Alexion)
    I want to watch things that are either factual or entertaining.

    I know that that will be neither.
    Hmm fair enough.

    I remain on the fence still :dontknow:

    There is no unbiased reading source I can do that will give or at least attempt, a balanced arguement on the benefits to staying/leaving etc.
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Hmm fair enough.

    I remain on the fence still :dontknow:

    There is no unbiased reading source I can do that will give or at least attempt, a balanced argument on the benefits to staying/leaving etc.
    I'm fully in the remain camp.

    I'm yet to come across a single reason for leaving that isn't based off of misrepresentation of facts, pure scepticism or emotional propaganda tbh.
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    (Original post by Alexion)
    I'm fully in the remain camp.

    I'm yet to come across a single reason for leaving that isn't based off of misrepresentation of facts, pure scepticism or emotional propaganda tbh.
    I've heard exactly the same thing for the other side.

    It's all confusing for somebody not that into politics :afraid:
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    I've heard exactly the same thing for the other side.

    It's all confusing for somebody not that into politics :afraid:
    The problem is, we don't know for certain what will happen if we leave. But we have something good going in the EU, it benefits us as a nation, even if the leave camp refuse to acknowledge that.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    So we are out of the EU but in the common market, so free movement will still be possible. What would you change? I am yet to hear what the leave camp would actually change.
    Leaving the EU would mean we are a self-governing country, able to decide our own policies, and that's good enough for me. It's pointless asking me. I'm in no position to make changes.

    What would change would be up to the government of the day, which the leave camp is not. It would be more useful to ask this of the Tory government who will be.
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    (Original post by Alexion)
    The problem is, we don't know for certain what will happen if we leave. But we have something good going in the EU, it benefits us as a nation, even if the leave camp refuse to acknowledge that.
    There are few benefits to us a nation. There, I've acknowledged there are benefits.

    There are no benefits worth the price.
 
 
 
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