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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    There's an interesting book by a lefty called Nick Cohen which examines the subject of the left losing its moral compass over radical Islam.

    Worth a read...

    http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Left-How.../dp/0007229704
    Nick Cohen is great.
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    I think both leftists and Islam share some common goals and use each other in different ways.

    Both of them want to control speech/thought through the media, destroy the foundations of western civilisation.

    Leftists and Islamists both want the masses to be unable to question their authority, the problem for leftists is they don't have any ancient texts to add legitimacy to their beliefs; not that it would add legitimacy but for the uneducated, if something has been around a long time they often consider it to be accepted truth. But progressivism has drawn a lot of lessons from Islamic fundamentalists, you can see it clearly by the similarity in debate tactics. They target academic institutions to spread ideology. Create social justice which if you think of it is just a westernised version of sharia law. Instead of burying them to their shoulders and pelting rocks at their head, they're harassing workplaces to get people fired. Same concept of calling on followers to carry out punishment instead of the law.
    Leftists are for the most part physically weak so they cling onto Islam as the followers are more quick to call to arms against dissent.

    Islamists use leftists to shoehorn their ideology into western civilisation and divide people into aggressors and sympathisers so they would fight among themselves. I believe Mohammed did the same thing before his conquest over Mecca.

    How will this end though? Leftists really should consider how they fit into the end game when they tag-team with Islam. If they think they can be gender-fluid blue haired whales without getting their throats cut when there isn't anyone left to defend them then they are truly deluded.
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    I just remembered why I take regular breaks from tsr. On the subject of politics, why do righties love generalising?

    I live in a area where there is a higher than average muslim population. I have never met a bad muslim in the 12 years I have been living here. The muslims I know and grew up with are kind, tolerant and friendly. The muslims in Britain, I believe, are just trying to live their lives. How would like to be compared to the KKK every day of your life? Every race and religion on Earth has good and bad sides. Learn and embrace their ways and they will do the same for you. I invite muslims over for christmas and I have visted them for Eid. I find other cultures fascinating and I have never been forced to do anything against my morals. As long as they are not hurting anyone, let them be.
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    (Original post by agentawesome)
    I just remembered why I take regular breaks from tsr. On the subject of politics, why do righties love generalising?

    I live in a area where there is a higher than average muslim population. I have never met a bad muslim in the 12 years I have been living here. The muslims I know and grew up with are kind, tolerant and friendly. The muslims in Britain, I believe, are just trying to live their lives. How would like to be compared to the KKK every day of your life? Every race and religion on Earth has good and bad sides. Learn and embrace their ways and they will do the same for you. I invite muslims over for christmas and I have visted them for Eid. I find other cultures fascinating and I have never been forced to do anything against my morals. As long as they are not hurting anyone, let them be.
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
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    Can anyone point me in the direction of where lefties have dismissed the beheading of gays as its just their culture? If such views are in anyway widespread, there must be dozens of quotes from prominent left wing politicians, academics and talking heads saying things to that effect. Only I can't seem to find them, so I was hoping someone could cite some examples.

    Although I did find that our current right wing government had engineered to get Saudi Arabia elected to the UN Human Rights Council. Just to give one example of how some on the right are happy to support or turn a blind eye to Islamic countries that engage in barbarity. Although I do recognise this is only some on the right, I'm not going to fall into the puerile trap of talking about the right as if they are one homogenous group, as so many on TSR do.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)

    Yes some of these countries alarm me. But for me that is not an issue of Islam itself.
    Why?

    Islam is a way of life, much more than Christianity is. Hence Muslims are much more likely to have a violent/discriminatory way of life.

    1. Do you think it's even possible to separate Islam and state?

    2. Even if that is achieved, do you think that will change anything in how Muslims would behave, what views they hold?
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    (Original post by agentawesome)
    I just remembered why I take regular breaks from tsr. On the subject of politics, why do righties love generalising?

    I live in a area where there is a higher than average muslim population. I have never met a bad muslim in the 12 years I have been living here. The muslims I know and grew up with are kind, tolerant and friendly. The muslims in Britain, I believe, are just trying to live their lives. How would like to be compared to the KKK every day of your life? Every race and religion on Earth has good and bad sides. Learn and embrace their ways and they will do the same for you. I invite muslims over for christmas and I have visted them for Eid. I find other cultures fascinating and I have never been forced to do anything against my morals. As long as they are not hurting anyone, let them be.
    Inability to distinguish between criticism of Islam and Muslims is precisely what this thread is attempting to show. Thank you for proving the point.
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    (Original post by agentawesome)
    I just remembered why I take regular breaks from tsr. On the subject of politics, why do righties love generalising?

    I live in a area where there is a higher than average muslim population. I have never met a bad muslim in the 12 years I have been living here. The muslims I know and grew up with are kind, tolerant and friendly. The muslims in Britain, I believe, are just trying to live their lives. How would like to be compared to the KKK every day of your life? Every race and religion on Earth has good and bad sides. Learn and embrace their ways and they will do the same for you. I invite muslims over for christmas and I have visted them for Eid. I find other cultures fascinating and I have never been forced to do anything against my morals. As long as they are not hurting anyone, let them be.
    As others have pointed out you are making the classic error of conflating an attack on Islam as a political ideology with an attack on the world's Muslim population.

    That is the whole point of the thread. Duh!
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    (Original post by Jebedee)
    I think both leftists and Islam share some common goals and use each other in different ways.

    Both of them want to control speech/thought through the media, destroy the foundations of western civilisation.

    Leftists and Islamists both want the masses to be unable to question their authority, the problem for leftists is they don't have any ancient texts to add legitimacy to their beliefs; not that it would add legitimacy but for the uneducated, if something has been around a long time they often consider it to be accepted truth. But progressivism has drawn a lot of lessons from Islamic fundamentalists, you can see it clearly by the similarity in debate tactics. They target academic institutions to spread ideology. Create social justice which if you think of it is just a westernised version of sharia law. Instead of burying them to their shoulders and pelting rocks at their head, they're harassing workplaces to get people fired. Same concept of calling on followers to carry out punishment instead of the law.
    Leftists are for the most part physically weak so they cling onto Islam as the followers are more quick to call to arms against dissent.

    Islamists use leftists to shoehorn their ideology into western civilisation and divide people into aggressors and sympathisers so they would fight among themselves. I believe Mohammed did the same thing before his conquest over Mecca.

    How will this end though? Leftists really should consider how they fit into the end game when they tag-team with Islam. If they think they can be gender-fluid blue haired whales without getting their throats cut when there isn't anyone left to defend them then they are truly deluded.
    I agree with a lot of that.

    There is no question that the Left have become Islamism's "useful idiots" to use Lenin's dismissive phrase. Clearly the left's ideology is utterly anathema to Islam's key tenets (let alone Islamism's). It is relativist, Islam is absolute. The left is pluralist, Islam sees non believers as Kaffirs, destined for hell.

    They utterly despise western lefties! But see them as useful allies in undermining secular western liberalism to be discarded when the mythical Caliphate arrives in the west.

    Why the left fails to see this obvious truth is the question this thread poses. It is a combination of several factors, surely? Denial, naivety and the wish being father to the thought all play a part.

    But there are two big things I think. First, the left doesn't understand Islamism, it doesn't understand that people can sincerely believe this stuff. It just doesn't get it, see the danger.

    Secondly, it is also using the Islamists as an ally in its attack on the west and especially America, Israel and Britain. They hate what these three countries stand for and therefore agree with the Islamists who also hate.

    Israel obviously because of the Palestinians, America as the "Great Satan" and Britain the "Little Satan" as an Islamist intellectual described it.

    The left's self loathing extends to support of our mortal enemies because they loathe us too.

    Strip all the edgy, counter cultural radical chic and that is what it boils down to.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Why?

    Islam is a way of life, much more than Christianity is.
    On what basis have you made that judgement?

    Hence Muslims are much more likely to have a violent/discriminatory way of life.
    Anecdotal, in the grandest sense of the word.

    1. Do you think it's even possible to separate Islam and state?
    Well, millions upon millions of Muslims live peacefully around the world in non-Muslim countries, so yes. Evidently it is possibe.

    2. Even if that is achieved, do you think that will change anything in how Muslims would behave, what views they hold?
    See my last point. Millions upon millions of Muslims around the world living peacefully.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Why do they love Islam so much that they shrug their shoulders when its followers rape women in the street? Why do they have the attitude of "it's just their culture man" when Muslims behead gays? Just wondering. Why is it OK for Muslims to act like this but it's not OK for non-Muslims to wear shirts with naughty cartoon pictures of ladies on it?
    i am a Muslim and i hate any one who does this,you have the kkk does it mean all
    whites are racist extremists no.You have Jews who think they are better than everyone else,do all Jews act like this no,their are over 2 billion muslims in the world if you hate muslims you hare a third of the world population.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    On what basis have you made that judgement?



    Anecdotal, in the grandest sense of the word.



    Well, millions upon millions of Muslims live peacefully around the world in non-Muslim countries, so yes. Evidently it is possibe.



    See my last point. Millions upon millions of Muslims around the world living peacefully.
    The mere fact that it means to submit oneself to it?

    Not at all.

    Because they live in countries with laws that they haven't decided upon.

    See my last point.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Why do they love Islam so much that they shrug their shoulders when its followers rape women in the street? Why do they have the attitude of "it's just their culture man" when Muslims behead gays? Just wondering. Why is it OK for Muslims to act like this but it's not OK for non-Muslims to wear shirts with naughty cartoon pictures of ladies on it?
    "But what's amazing is that they are, certainly on the topic of Islamism, functioning as de facto apologists for theocracy. The fact that they don't see this, or don't care. The fact that identity politics, their concern for generic brown skinned people, or generic immigrants, trumps any concern they should otherwise have about real fascists and real theocracy and real human rights abuses. That still strikes me as somewhat mysterious. I feel like I'm in the presence of people who've made some kind of reverse Faustian bargain. It's like they sold their souls to the devil and got stupid in return."

    Sam Harris
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    I agree with a lot of that.

    There is no question that the Left have become Islamism's "useful idiots" to use Lenin's dismissive phrase. Clearly the left's ideology is utterly anathema to Islam's key tenets (let alone Islamism's). It is relativist, Islam is absolute. The left is pluralist, Islam sees non believers as Kaffirs, destined for hell.

    They utterly despise western lefties! But see them as useful allies in undermining secular western liberalism to be discarded when the mythical Caliphate arrives in the west.

    Why the left fails to see this obvious truth is the question this thread poses. It is a combination of several factors, surely? Denial, naivety and the wish being father to the thought all play a part.

    But there are two big things I think. First, the left doesn't understand Islamism, it doesn't understand that people can sincerely believe this stuff. It just doesn't get it, see the danger.

    Secondly, it is also using the Islamists as an ally in its attack on the west and especially America, Israel and Britain. They hate what these three countries stand for and therefore agree with the Islamists who also hate.

    Israel obviously because of the Palestinians, America as the "Great Satan" and Britain the "Little Satan" as an Islamist intellectual described it.

    The left's self loathing extends to support of our mortal enemies because they loathe us too.

    Strip all the edgy, counter cultural radical chic and that is what it boils down to.
    Love this attempt to turn this frothy excuse for a discussion into a serious debate. A+ for effort, but you've clearly gone for style over substance and faiked on both counts
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    (Original post by hamouti33)
    i am a Muslim and i hate any one who does this,you have the kkk does it mean all
    whites are racist extremists no.You have Jews who think they are better than everyone else,do all Jews act like this no,their are over 2 billion muslims in the world if you hate muslims you hare a third of the world population.
    Telling this to everyone who obviously does not understand the problem.

    There is nothing inherent ideology called "being white" that makes people act like the KKK.

    There is on the other hand, an inherent line of thought in Islam that promotes discrimination and violence.

    That is a difference you people seem incapable nor willing to understand.

    Instead you say "individual cases" (as if entire countries are individual cases) or "not true muslims" and you shut your eyes to the problem, instead of addressing it.
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    (Original post by hamouti33)
    i am a Muslim and i hate any one who does this,you have the kkk does it mean all
    whites are racist extremists no.You have Jews who think they are better than everyone else,do all Jews act like this no,their are over 2 billion muslims in the world if you hate muslims you hare a third of the world population.
    This is not a comparative analysis of global hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    While obviously not all Muslims are evil gay hating Terrorist oppressors there are a larger quanitity that many other religions and it is a big problem as many high up people in Islamic countries are crazy.

    A few years ago when a draw muhammed day happened many people died and 10000's rioted all over a drawing.

    showing muhammed on tv is seen as way to offensive and it is quite frankly stupid.
    If on tv I depicted Jesus having gay sex or the Buddha at a buffet eating all the food people may kindly complain but would not go and riot and kill people.

    On the topic of drawing Mohamed (or whichever one of the 27 variants of his name you want to use), I've never understood why it is such a bad thing for non-Muslims to do.

    Firstly, telling people not to draw the guy is an Islamic law. And that is fair enough. If they want to abide by those rules to get into Heaven, then by all means let them.
    Furthermore, drinking alcohol, homosexuality, and women exposing flesh are also banned by Islam. Again, if you want to live by those laws, then I won't stop you (as long as no-one is being forced to cover up, etc, against their will).

    However, to accept one Islamic rule but not the others is nothing short of hypocrisy. Either you abide by all of their rules (not going to happen), or you abide by none of them. You can't pick and choose which laws you want to "respect". In Britain, our women aren't wearing Burkhas, we can freely drink, and we can be open about our sexuality. Why shouldn't we be able to draw a famous historical figure? Would anyone like to clarify for me?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Telling this to everyone who obviously does not understand the problem.

    There is nothing inherent ideology called "being white" that makes people act like the KKK.

    There is on the other hand, an inherent line of thought in Islam that promotes discrimination and violence.

    That is a difference you people seem incapable nor willing to understand.

    Instead you say "individual cases" (as if entire countries are individual cases) or "not true muslims" and you shut your eyes to the problem, instead of addressing it.
    Violence is no more inherent to Islam than it is to Christianity, or any other major religion.

    In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.

    People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Violence is no more inherent to Islam than it is to Christianity, or any other major religion.

    In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.

    People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
    Are you for real?

    Islam is a supremacist ideology, spread at the point of a scimitar. You must know this, right?

    The fact that Christianity was spread by the sword too, doesn't negate that point it reinforces it.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Are you for real?

    Islam is a supremacist ideology, spread at the point of a scimitar. You must know this, right?

    The fact that Christianity was spread by the sword too, doesn't negate that point it reinforces it.
    Which part of what I said are you disagreeing with?
 
 
 
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