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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Are you just going to regurgitate everything milo says from the rubin report...have any thoughts of your own on the matter? Or is this what you actually believe?
    Actually. I'm stating facts that I actually believe and I have campaigned on such things, I mean why would it matter either way.

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    (Original post by IAmNero)
    Actually. I'm stating facts that I actually believe and I have campaigned on such things, I mean why would it matter either way.

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    I don't think it was from the rubin report anyway now that I think about it, but the thread did sound VERY similar to an interview I watched of Milo. If you haven't seen the rubin report one you should, it's really good. I was just playing devils advocate anyway, I suppose I agree with the points you make, other than the thread title.

    Do you feel oppressed?
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    Maybe if you social conservatives weren't so worshipping of traditional ideas of masculinity very few of these would exist as problems.
    Blaming women and or/feminism just shows a complete lack of self-awareness.

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    (Original post by RobML)
    Maybe if you social conservatives weren't so worshipping of traditional ideas of masculinity very few of these would exist as problems.
    Blaming women and or/feminism just shows a complete lack of self-awareness.

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    Traditional ideas of masculinity such as?
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    Both men and women are oppressed, end of thread.
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    (Original post by Rhythmical)
    Both men and women are oppressed, end of thread.
    Oppressed by who though
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Oppressed by who though
    Their own social views lel
    People are stupid
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Traditional ideas of masculinity such as?
    Regarding dominance, expression and openness of emotion, masculine pride, etc.

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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Oppressed by who though
    Men are oppressed by other men and females are oppressed by other females. It isn't like that for everyone but it's just the way I've seen it. I mean more females are harsher to other females as opposed to males being critical over females.
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    we accidentally gave women too many rights
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    sex WHY zzz

    everyone is shouting "unfair treatment" in some shape or form. Why don't they think of it in this way - no longer are they spending each day of their lives trying to be alive the next day
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    sex WHY zzz

    everyone is shouting "unfair treatment" in some shape or form. Why don't they think of it in this way - no longer are they spending each day of their lives trying to be alive the next day
    Wot?

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    (Original post by ElaArslan)
    Spoiler:
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    Yes I completely agree with all of this, I'm not opposed to anything you have said. Just made a simple correction for someone who has the wrong idea about feminism I would class myself as a feminist because I believe that both of the sexes are human and therefore should be treated like humans. Its not fair how people use the word feminist everywhere in a bad light, not every woman says they are a feminist just to simply benefit females - at least I don't. Our society is ridiculously flawed as it tells young boys to grow up to be masculine. Socialisation is everywhere, most families do not condone feminine behaviour that their sons may show. The suicide statistic is awfully sad and most happen because men do not know how to SHOW emotion, as they are brought up to 'man up' and shrug it off. It's gonna take a lot more centuries for people to realise that men have every reason and choice not to be masculine. As for the TV shows, they are disgusting. It's completely made for entertainment, whilst lowering the self confidence of the people who go on.
    Not a rant but I found your post interesting and wanted you to clarify your opinions.

    I would say it's dangerous to talk about a "wrong idea about feminism". That's like when people say "you have the wrong idea about communism" or "that was the old idea of communism, in principle communism is a good idea".

    Besides you don't sound like a typical feminist from what you wrote (underlined). More of a humanist tbh.

    Most feminists would say something like "I would class myself as a feminist because I believe in this day and age gender 'imbalances' such as women getting less pay are not acceptable anymore. There is no reason why a woman can't do anything a man can do"

    Also you talk about masculine and feminine 'behaviours' which I'm sure most feminists would disagree with. Especially they wouldn't see these as good things, more that concepts of masculinity and femininity should be removed.

    Also, your socialisation point is very unbalanced and while I agree socialisation definitely exists (I studied sociology), it does not apply to boys disproportionately nor is it that much of a factor in causing society to be 'flawed' as you put it.

    Finally, I am very uncomfortable with your opinion that "most [suicides] happen because men do not know how to SHOW emotion". This is not only a very sexist statement but wrong and unfounded.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Regarding dominance, expression and openness of emotion, masculine pride, etc.

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    (Original post by RobML)
    Regarding dominance, expression and openness of emotion, masculine pride, etc.

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    What is wrong with those 'traditional views'??

    The idea that men can't be open with their emotions is also a load of BS and in my opinion isn't part of traditional views on masculinity. There's a time and a place for expression negative emotion and I don't think it needs to be done at every available opportunity, but that doesn't mean we internalise everything and let it manifest in some ****ed up way in our behaviour just because we don't always 'open up'.
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    (Original post by Rhythmical)
    Men are oppressed by other men and females are oppressed by other females. It isn't like that for everyone but it's just the way I've seen it. I mean more females are harsher to other females as opposed to males being critical over females.
    Hmmmm I think to use the word oppressed, especially in Western society is a very strong choice of words. :dontknow:
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    Hmmmm I think to use the word oppressed, especially in Western society is a very strong choice of words. :dontknow:
    Hmm when you look at it in that way, yes it is. Oppression is very strong and it's not often used because there aren't many situations where there is oppression, you can't count every day situations like being critical over someone's looks because the word is much powerful. Have you ever experienced oppression before? The only time I've witnessed/heard about it was with my GCSE Science teacher where she got bullied by other teachers, mainly females for reasons unclear and she ended up leaving and was diagnosed with depression.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    Not a rant but I found your post interesting and wanted you to clarify your opinions.

    I would say it's dangerous to talk about a "wrong idea about feminism". That's like when people say "you have the wrong idea about communism" or "that was the old idea of communism, in principle communism is a good idea".

    Besides you don't sound like a typical feminist from what you wrote (underlined). More of a humanist tbh.

    Most feminists would say something like "I would class myself as a feminist because I believe in this day and age gender 'imbalances' such as women getting less pay are not acceptable anymore. There is no reason why a woman can't do anything a man can do"

    Also you talk about masculine and feminine 'behaviours' which I'm sure most feminists would disagree with. Especially they wouldn't see these as good things.

    Also, your socialisation point is very unbalanced and while I agree socialisation definitely exists (I studied sociology), it does not apply to boys disproportionately nor is it that much of a factor in causing society to be 'flawed' as you put it.

    Finally, I am very uncomfortable with your opinion that "most [suicides] happen because men do not know how to SHOW emotion". This is not only a very sexist statement but wrong and unfounded.
    I don't sound like a typical feminist because I'm not typical😂

    And the point about both genders being human, I said it in a way which indicates that both genders should be equal. But thanks for the humanist point, I guess I should just call myself that.

    Can I just highlight that feminism is not just about women? Its the belief the both genders should be treated the same. Yes women still get payed less and thats a problem, as I've said before in the forum.

    Plus I wasn't talking about masculine and feminine behaviour as something I agree with anyway.. I was simply expressing my views about how socialisation always has an impact on how masculine and feminine people can be.

    Lastly I'm actually offended at how you would say that statement was sexist.. I'm the last person on the world who would be sexist lmao. I was implying that most men don't know how to show emotion because being emotional is seen as a feminine trait. This isn't sexist, I was just stating the fact that our 'flawed' society - because in my opinion it IS flawed - doesn't allow men to be comfortable about being emotional.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    Not a rant but I found your post interesting and wanted you to clarify your opinions.

    I would say it's dangerous to talk about a "wrong idea about feminism". That's like when people say "you have the wrong idea about communism" or "that was the old idea of communism, in principle communism is a good idea".

    Besides you don't sound like a typical feminist from what you wrote (underlined). More of a humanist tbh.

    Most feminists would say something like "I would class myself as a feminist because I believe in this day and age gender 'imbalances' such as women getting less pay are not acceptable anymore. There is no reason why a woman can't do anything a man can do"

    Also you talk about masculine and feminine 'behaviours' which I'm sure most feminists would disagree with. Especially they wouldn't see these as good things, more that concepts of masculinity and femininity should be removed.

    Also, your socialisation point is very unbalanced and while I agree socialisation definitely exists (I studied sociology), it does not apply to boys disproportionately nor is it that much of a factor in causing society to be 'flawed' as you put it.

    Finally, I am very uncomfortable with your opinion that "most [suicides] happen because men do not know how to SHOW emotion". This is not only a very sexist statement but wrong and unfounded.
    Said lad wasn't talking of concepts of masculinity and femininity as natural and good; think you misunderstood him there.

    Lmao, it's not sexist, just a very simplified version of a very good explanation for the higher suicide rate among men. The tendency of dominance within the construct of masculinity results in pressure and stress. This coupled with the tendency of stoicism and suppressing emotion within the construct of masculinity is a very effective explanation. It may make you uncomfortable but it should do.

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    (Original post by ElaArslan)
    Lastly I'm actually offended at how you would say that statement was sexist.. I'm the last person on the world who would be sexist lmao. I was implying that most men don't know how to show emotion because being emotional is seen as a feminine trait. This isn't sexist, I was just stating the fact that our 'flawed' society - because in my opinion it IS flawed - doesn't allow men to be comfortable about being emotional.
    Anyone can be sexist, even the last person on the world (lmao).

    Most men DO know how to show emotion. What you said was sexist I'm afraid even if you rationalise it.
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    (Original post by Rhythmical)
    Hmm when you look at it in that way, yes it is. Oppression is very strong and it's not often used because there aren't many situations where there is oppression, you can't count every day situations like being critical over someone's looks because the word is much powerful. Have you ever experienced oppression before? The only time I've witnessed/heard about it was with my GCSE Science teacher where she got bullied by other teachers, mainly females for reasons unclear and she ended up leaving and was diagnosed with depression.
    My family in Pakistan were part of a very small christian minority in a community of muslims. They were oppressed. I wasn't born then, they left and split up and some moved to Australia and some to England. I doubt I will ever experience oppression in England.

    I also know a teacher that was severely bullied by other teachers and he eventually ended up quitting. He lasted 1 year.
 
 
 
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