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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Stop lying you little whiner.

    Stop saying the EU is undemocratic when in reality all that is going on is a) You don't want to be part of Europe and b) You don't think Britain has enough power in the Europe.

    This whole "oooh the EU is so undemocratic" whining is just subterfuge.

    ps you don't even understand first past the post. It matters jack **** that constituencies are smaller. In every single one of them there are losers, and everyone who voted for that loser will have his or her vote made useless. That adds up to a far bigger discrepancy than the fact that some EU countries have a lower or higher MEP per capita number.
    Your statement is not correct, in fact and mathematically. The variance for UK constituencies population is 65,060,926, standard deviation is 8066. The variance for EU states are 54,040,341,219, standard deviation of 232466. This is a factor of almost 29.

    I have very clearly stated the statistic. However you seem to be taking an aggressive tone instead of making your point in a normal debating manner. It's fine if you do not like the facts, but your tone shows a lot about yourself.

    Also, statistic do not lie. I have not altered any data and this is simple calculation of statistical spread.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Your statement is not correct, in fact and mathematically. The variance for UK constituencies population is 65,060,925.742, standard deviation is 8066.0353174. The variance for EU states are 54,040,341,219, SD 232465.78505. This is a factor of almost 29.

    I have very clearly stated the statistic. However you seem to be taking an aggressive tone instead of making your point in a normal debating manner. It's fine if you do not like the facts, but your tone shows a lot about yourself.

    Also, statistic do not lie. I have not altered any data and this is simple calculation of statistical spread.
    I am taking this tone, because I am upset with your constant lying.

    What are you trying to prove here? These figures, mean jack all. What are they supposed to represent? What effect are they supposed to show?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    So the guys each country votes for, appoint people.

    OMG

    Stop the presses.

    That is so undemocratic.

    You do realize some heads of state are not voted for directly either, right? You do know that ministers are appointed, as well? You do realize that the ECB is an independent body, in theory the BoE could do the exact same.
    A British PM still has far more legitimacy than a commissioner. We have these things called ELECTIONS in the UK, where we can take away the mandate of a PM.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I am taking this tone, because I am upset with your constant lying.

    What are you trying to prove here? These figures, mean jack all. What are they supposed to represent? What effect are they supposed to show?
    He hasnt lied about anything lmao
    I think you should take a moment to relax
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I am taking this tone, because I am upset with your constant lying.

    What are you trying to prove here? These figures, mean jack all. What are they supposed to represent? What effect are they supposed to show?
    The standard deviation in this case is the magnitude of the spread of voting power. A high SD would mean that the voting power disparity is high, and it is common for a data to deviate from the mean figure significantly. Given that the UK's parliamentary voting power disparity's SD is 29 times lower than the EU's system, this in effects shows that the UK's representation is 29 times fairer than the EU's.

    This is why I am saying the EU is not democratic by any means, statistically or by common sense. You can argue that the UK's isn't 100% democratic too, but the representation deficit is 29 times less hence 29 times fairer.

    SD distribution:




    Variance:

    This is just an example graph of the variance. But for reference you can imagine the spread of data of the UK as the curve in red, and the EU in green.

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    (Original post by Redmonds)
    A British PM still has far more legitimacy than a commissioner. We have these things called ELECTIONS in the UK, where we can take away the mandate of a PM.
    Every five years they appoint new commissioners. If you don't like the current one your country has, vote differently and hope whomever you voted chooses a better person.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    He hasnt lied about anything lmao
    I think you should take a moment to relax
    Oh, right, so kind of you to be thinking about my mental well-being.

    But he is still a liar, and so are you.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Oh, right, so kind of you to be thinking about my mental well-being.

    But he is still a liar, and so are you.
    Then please explain where I lied. I have taken the time to calculate the data and explain the meaning of the it which I really shouldn't need to.

    As I bothered to be logical and mathematical, the least I can expect from you is to explain your claim?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Every five years they appoint new commissioners. If you don't like the current one your country has, vote differently and hope whomever you voted chooses a better person.
    Is this a joke? This is one of the most laughable things I have ever heard. Do you really hate democracy that much or do you lack any understanding of the democratic process? Let me know when your ballot for the next commissioner comes through the door...
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    The standard deviation in this case is the magnitude of the spread of voting power. A high SD would mean that the voting power disparity is high, and it is common for a data to deviate from the mean figure significantly. Given that the UK's parliamentary voting power disparity's SD is 29 times lower than the EU's system, this in effects shows that the UK's representation is 29 times fairer than the EU's.

    This is why I am saying the EU is not democratic by any means, statistically or by common sense. You can argue that the UK's isn't 100% democratic too, but the representation deficit is 29 times less hence 29 times fairer.
    Don't show me generic graphs and tell me to imagine something.

    Show me the calculation.
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    (Original post by Redmonds)
    Is this a joke? This is one of the most laughable things I have ever heard. Do you really hate democracy that much or do you lack any understanding of the democratic process? Let me know when your ballot for the next commissioner comes through the door...
    No one in Germany voted for Merkel.

    Is Germany the most undemocratic country in the EU?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Don't show me generic graphs and tell me to imagine something.

    Show me the calculation.
    You can use this calculator to find out the variance and SD. You can also use any calculator and it would be the same.

    The data for UK population per representative are as below in comma delimited format:

    21769,34552,40492,44394,45525,47 558,48690,49821,49939,50992,5133 5,51422,51811,53639,54169,54242, 54441,54996,55377,55572,55697,55 750,56015,56097,56505,56956,5696 9,57291,57411,57456,57755,58011, 58147,58615,58644,58776,58940,59 100,59144,59200,59314,59350,5970 8,59981,59998,60169,60215,60363, 60368,60464,60634,60705,60717,60 992,61065,61133,61247,61281,6128 7,61549,61659,61716,61820,61873, 61896,61908,61922,61974,62003,62 016,62087,62137,62248,62346,6241 0,62468,62556,62697,62730,62811, 62844,63084,63098,63104,63157,63 204,63372,63476,63478,63603,6363 7,63651,63674,63698,63738,63856, 63923,63931,63957,63998,64002,64 025,64148,64207,64243,64289,6429 9,64477,64515,64524,64534,64573, 64580,64754,64826,64828,64927,64 937,64950,65004,65128,65209,6526 9,65359,65477,65495,65524,65531, 65570,65591,65606,65679,65710,65 792,65801,65827,65851,65853,6585 7,65918,65927,65942,66016,66035, 66048,66066,66070,66121,66126,66 141,66166,66206,66209,66347,6635 5,66374,66519,66678,66680,66762, 66792,66876,66913,66926,66944,66 966,66985,67015,67064,67080,6708 8,67090,67141,67192,67196,67236, 67326,67329,67339,67425,67439,67 477,67580,67619,67741,67743,6774 4,67745,67822,67832,67851,67858, 67875,67895,67901,67902,67926,67 950,67994,68037,68056,68091,6811 8,68127,68128,68129,68170,68190, 68193,68246,68324,68338,68341,68 343,68407,68418,68446,68474,6848 3,68488,68553,68569,68609,68630, 68705,68725,68865,68867,68875,68 936,68987,69026,69066,69077,6909 7,69128,69135,69205,69208,69223, 69228,69290,69303,69311,69380,69 481,69510,69523,69582,69644,6968 7,69781,69793,69794,69816,69865, 69928,69943,69947,69981,69982,70 000,70021,70036,70108,70145,7015 2,70155,70240,70270,70283,70378, 70397,70397,70422,70462,70464,70 521,70533,70573,70597,70631,7063 7,70803,70817,70829,70874,70906, 70945,70970,70981,70984,70989,71 008,71035,71071,71074,71136,7115 2,71154,71155,71193,71195,71299, 71304,71310,71357,71422,71428,71 438,71445,71475,71478,71485,7151 1,71534,71538,71578,71592,71625, 71639,71652,71655,71685,71712,71 717,71764,71913,71913,71918,7193 5,71943,71958,71979,72043,72082, 72104,72146,72149,72177,72193,72 254,72275,72281,72290,72321,7235 1,72430,72459,72461,72503,72530, 72530,72547,72557,72567,72594,72 697,72714,72719,72737,72738,7277 1,72794,72818,72873,72930,72944, 72950,72992,72995,72995,73018,73 069,73105,73181,73216,73232,7323 9,73247,73260,73268,73274,73278, 73315,73326,73336,73337,73349,73 394,73428,73429,73429,73445,7344 7,73505,73511,73518,73552,73557, 73601,73626,73719,73747,73759,73 767,73771,73779,73836,73881,7388 3,73894,73923,73926,73936,73977, 74000,74038,74051,74102,74119,74 121,74169,74187,74204,74214,7421 8,74234,74269,74275,74283,74291, 74317,74320,74402,74485,74499,74 532,74616,74679,74686,74726,7473 7,74743,74775,74870,74874,74875, 74877,74956,75092,75095,75111,75 209,75217,75220,75248,75249,7525 0,75262,75285,75294,75302,75351, 75430,75462,75617,75733,75791,75 820,75825,75876,75905,75941,7599 0,75994,76006,76018,76082,76111, 76174,76198,76270,76330,76350,76 371,76400,76408,76460,76489,7651 9,76557,76575,76607,76645,76666, 76782,76796,76851,76918,76968,76 970,77038,77091,77114,77119,7715 4,77174,77242,77248,77269,77287, 77303,77370,77379,77407,77425,77 451,77524,77534,77548,77559,7762 8,77633,77720,77754,77760,77807, 77816,77881,77946,77956,78000,78 037,78171,78262,78290,78373,7850 1,78561,78580,78621,78633,78796, 78858,78910,78978,79062,79085,79 108,79137,79143,79223,79247,7928 5,79300,79331,79393,79405,79481, 79512,79515,79609,79654,79665,79 668,79693,79738,79767,79770,7977 5,79894,79962,79989,80060,80161, 80166,80195,80236,80250,80309,80 315,80333,80491,80544,80610,8061 5,80721,80805,80910,80983,81023, 81034,81150,81238,81271,81341,81 496,81799,81928,82010,82081,8219 6,82231,82340,82373,82447,82516, 82592,82593,82727,82746,82830,82 931,82968,82990,83205,83221,8328 1,83298,83380,83384,83396,83535, 83551,83651,84132,84570,84602,84 767,84971,85177,85781,85941,8598 2,86078,86366,86420,86764,86826, 86955,87382,87972,88153,89656,90 318,90640,91236,91987,108804

    The data for EU representative is below:

    70227,89507,144313,220802,252978 ,257353,270173,387467,416218,417 372,417436,428503,430971,469548, 471848,477795,499395,500768,5267 86,531507,625627,645368,755555,8 17606,838789,864895,875289,88693 5

    Enter these data into the calculator and you will find the SD and variance.

    These data are extracted from:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...constituencies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apport...ean_Parliament
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Then please explain where I lied. I have taken the time to calculate the data and explain the meaning of the it which I really shouldn't need to.

    As I bothered to be logical and mathematical, the least I can expect from you is to explain your claim?
    Because at the end of the day you are just upset that Britain doesn't have enough power. If you really thought the EU was so undemocratic then you should boycott every single one of your own elections. Because at the end of the day you are just anti-Europe, which would be fine, but don't pretend otherwise, or come up with disingenuous arguments about so-called undemocratic being what you dislike.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    You can use this calculator to find out the variance and SD. You can also use any calculator and it would be the same.

    The data for UK population per representative are as below in comma delimited format:



    The data for EU representative is below:

    Enter these data into the calculator and you will find the SD and variance.

    These data are extracted from:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...constituencies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apport...ean_Parliament
    You see, again you are being disingenuous here. Yes, you are right that, UK has the 3rd lowest MEP per capita, and there is a huge spread.

    But comparing it to the UK is completely bad form. The actual constituencies may have a much lower voting power spread, but it is still fact that every single vote that went to a loser in one of the 650 constituencies is a wasted vote. That is not the case for MEP elections.

    Look at the end of the day, I too think the EU needs to change. But to completely misrepresent how it does actually function, to make fallacious comparisons, to not be honest about disliking the idea, that is completely unacceptable and why I am arguing against you.

    At the end of day, what do you think is democracy? Switzerland? Every important decision you have to go to the poll station and simple majority wins? Every time someone makes a petition they have to set up a referendum?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Because at the end of the day you are just upset that Britain doesn't have enough power. If you really thought the EU was so undemocratic then you should boycott every single one of your own elections. Because at the end of the day you are just anti-Europe, which would be fine, but don't pretend otherwise, or come up with disingenuous arguments about so-called undemocratic being what you dislike.
    I think I would stick to voting Leave this seems to be the most sensible option and much less aggressive as the one suggested by you. I do not pretend that I am not anti-EU, and in case you were wondering I am making a case to leave. My arguments are factual and backed up by statistics, meanwhile I find no evidence to support your claims in this thread so far.

    As I said, the calculation indicates the fact that the EU is 29 times less fair than the UK's parliamentary system - we are being under-represented. This is a fact. I have not lied about anything, and despite our differences you should know well not to accuse others of absurd claims for the sake of defending your argument.

    It would be refreshing if you can support your argument with facts for once.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I think I would stick to voting Leave this seems to be the most sensible option and much less aggressive as the one suggested by you. I do not pretend that I am not anti-EU, and in case you were wondering I am making a case to leave. My arguments are factual and backed up by statistics, meanwhile I find no evidence to support your claims in this thread so far.

    As I said, the calculation indicates the fact that the EU is 29 less fair than the UK's parliamentary system - we are being under-represented. This is a fact. I have not lied about anything, and despite our differences you should know well not to accuse others of absurd claims for the sake of defending your argument.

    It would be refreshing if you can support your argument with facts for once.
    There have been plenty of discussions on this, plenty of people have explained and linked to the EU website to tell people how things actually work. I don't see a need to repeat that.

    And again, what does that even mean, most sensible? In what way? And what do you mean 29 times more fair? That is not really how you can compare those two SDs...not to mention if you look at the data you will see that between some of the bigger countries the difference is vastly smaller and it is the smaller countries that skew the results. And you have completely ignored, repeatedly, the point that in the UK actual votes are lost, in the EU they are not.

    You see what I mean? I don't even know why I joined this thread as well, I should have known from previous ones that there is no arguing with people like you.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    You see, again you are being disingenuous here. Yes, you are right that, UK has the 3rd lowest MEP per capita, and there is a huge spread.

    But comparing it to the UK is completely bad form. The actual constituencies may have a much lower voting power spread, but it is still fact that every single vote that went to a loser in one of the 650 constituencies is a wasted vote. That is not the case for MEP elections.

    Look at the end of the day, I too think the EU needs to change. But to completely misrepresent how it does actually function, to make fallacious comparisons, to not be honest about disliking the idea, that is completely unacceptable and why I am arguing against you.

    At the end of day, what do you think is democracy? Switzerland? Every important decision you have to go to the poll station and simple majority wins? Every time someone makes a petition they have to set up a referendum?
    No, I stated that the UK has the 2nd highest population per MEP figure.

    In a statical point of view, it is actually more democratically accurate to use first-pass-the-post because it will generate a more representative leader. For example if David Cameron wins vs Jeremy Corbyn by 55% to 45% in a direct non-FPTP election, 45% of voters would be 'disappointed' and Labour would be completely powerless. However if 55% of constituencies belong to the Conversatives, Labour would still hold 45% of constituencies power. Every labour constituency would still represent the majority of the constituency. Also every vote for the lost candidate is not a 'wasted' vote, in fact it is what makes the candidate a potential winner at the first place, and what makes a winner the winner. If you criticise this then the complete principle of election would be void, unless you have a crystal that can foresee who will win at the end.

    As I said, I have not lied or misrepresented anything. The statistics that I used would be described as 'vanilla' form by any statistician. It is just a simple calculation with no assumption or manipulation on data.

    On your last question. For argument's sake, let's say I consider the UK as 'democratic'. If the EU is able to reduce their voting power disparity spread by 29 times (to UK's level), then I shall consider it democratic.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    No, I stated that the UK has the 2nd highest population per MEP figure.

    In a statical point of view, it is actually more democratically accurate to use first-pass-the-post because it will generate a more representative leader. For example if David Cameron wins vs Jeremy Corbyn by 55% to 45% in a direct non-FPTP election, 45% of voters would be 'disappointed' and Labour would be completely powerless. However if 55% of constituencies belong to the Conversatives, Labour would still hold 45% of constituencies power. Every labour constituency would still represent the majority of the constituency. Also every vote for the lost candidate is not a 'wasted' vote, in fact it is what makes the candidate a potential winner at the first place, and what makes a winner the winner. If you criticise this then the complete principle of election would be void, unless you have a crystal that can foresee who will win at the end.

    As I said, I have not lied or misrepresented anything. The statistics that I used would be described as 'vanilla' form by any statistician. It is just a simple calculation with no assumption or manipulation on data.

    On your last question. For argument's sake, let's say I consider the UK as 'democratic'. If the EU is able to reduce their voting power disparity spread by 29 times (to UK's level), then I shall consider it democratic.
    :facepalm:
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    There have been plenty of discussions on this, plenty of people have explained and linked to the EU website to tell people how things actually work. I don't see a need to repeat that.

    And again, what does that even mean, most sensible? In what way? And what do you mean 29 times more fair? That is not really how you can compare those two SDs...not to mention if you look at the data you will see that between some of the bigger countries the difference is vastly smaller and it is the smaller countries that skew the results. And you have completely ignored, repeatedly, the point that in the UK actual votes are lost, in the EU they are not.

    You see what I mean? I don't even know why I joined this thread as well, I should have known from previous ones that there is no arguing with people like you.
    This is exactly the way SD is used. I suggest you spend an afternoon on the use of SD and variance. I have already explained the '29 times fairer' figure. The fact that we give such small populations so much more power is a key factor of this disparity. It also does not help that even including the big countries, UK still has the 2nd highest population per MEP figure of 28 states.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I don't even know why I joined this thread as well, I should have known from previous ones that there is no arguing with people like you.
    He's not being stubborn, he's literally just presenting you raw figures and then doing some fair statistical tests on them. The only reason you're finding it hard to refute them is because they're true! You can't argue them ergo they must be true so it follows that either you're delusional or you actually agree with Cherish here.

    Why are you so stuck on voting in when the numbers and reason weighs against it? It's like when you see Creationists denying evolution.
 
 
 
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