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Orwellian double speak regarding terrorism is designed to avoid conversation Watch

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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Too right with the new EU Hate speech laws we are getting closer to a far more Orwellian society
    Hate, Racist, Victim, all words that have lost meaning and we are all poorer for it.
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    (Original post by Damien96)
    Hate, Racist, Victim, all words that have lost meaning and we are all poorer for it.
    No Truer words have been spoken today
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    There is a very real mainstream interpretation of Islam that is considered a direct incitement to violence by Muslims, every survey and poll attests to this.
    Then those behind this survey must have been stunned to ifnd that that was the result!

    http://kitten2cat.co.uk/the-nations-...ed-survey/471/


    In the largest of it's kind some 33,000 Muslims were questioned by PEW research across several countries, 27% believed in violence in the defense of, and were being called to do so, by Islam. The survey itself was bias, as several countries were too dangerous to enter at the time. So in all likelihood the number would most likely have went up a few percent.
    Source? I believe you are referring to a highly unscientific survey that was then chopping to fit the narrative of the tabloids. That survey has been discussed and criticised here already, months ago.


    Instead of trying to convince us, the targets of Muslim violence, that Islam doesn't call for violence why not spend your time trying to convince the Muslims who believe it does. Do you like being a de facto apologist for theocracy ? We have Muslims the world over telling us that Islam calls them to murder, and you are here trying to convince people that they are what ? Lying ? That they aren't real Muslims.
    No, we're trying to say stop portraying the general Muslim population as murderous, dangerous terrorists. Judging an entire section of the world's population (by religion) on the deeds of a small subsection of them is pretty much bigotry.

    Islam, like Christianity, like Buddhist, is subject to interpretation. Saying that parts of Islamic scripture encourage or condone violence is no more a lie than saying parts Christian or Buddhist scripture encourage or condone violence. What we need everyone to understand, of all religions, is that whatever a true believer may look like, it has to fit in with the basic humans rights of others.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Then those behind this survey must have been stunned to ifnd that that was the result!

    http://kitten2cat.co.uk/the-nations-...ed-survey/471/




    Source? I believe you are referring to a highly unscientific survey that was then chopping to fit the narrative of the tabloids. That survey has been discussed and criticised here already, months ago.




    No, we're trying to say stop portraying the general Muslim population as murderous, dangerous terrorists. Judging an entire section of the world's population (by religion) on the deeds of a small subsection of them is pretty much bigotry.

    Islam, like Christianity, like Buddhist, is subject to interpretation. Saying that parts of Islamic scripture encourage or condone violence is no more a lie than saying parts Christian or Buddhist scripture encourage or condone violence. What we need everyone to understand, of all religions, is that whatever a true believer may look like, it has to fit in with the basic humans rights of others.
    There is a global insurgency going on, you can choose to bury your hand in the sand and not deal with it if you prefer, I only ask that you don't reply to all criticism of Islam with the line "Well not all Muslims". Unfortunately no language can work in that nuanced a way unless you start each sentence with a 5 minute disclaimer.

    This is a tactic of those that do not want to have the conversation, not claiming this is true of you personally, and it is highly frustrating to have to continuously address it and accusations of bigotry before anything of note can be discussed.
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    (Original post by Damien96)
    There is a global insurgency going on, you can choose to bury your hand in the sand and not deal with it if you prefer, I only ask that you don't reply to all criticism of Islam with the line "Well not all Muslims". Unfortunately no language can work in that nuanced a way unless you start each sentence with a 5 minute disclaimer.

    This is a tactic of those that do not want to have the conversation, not claiming this is true of you personally, and it is highly frustrating to have to continuously address it and accusations of bigotry before anything of note can be discussed.
    So how exactly are you dealing with it? What productive discussion is being avoided?
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    So how exactly are you dealing with it? What productive discussion is being avoided?
    No discussions as such,probably just huge generalisations thrown around here,there and everywhere. whether it's racism,islamophobic and blaming ethnic minorities for 'white genocide',thus overtime it just gets boring to listen to

    Anyway,certain laws are there for a reason
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    So how exactly are you dealing with it? What productive discussion is being avoided?
    It isn't incumbent on those trying to deal with it to come up with a snappy answer. I haven't got a solution, I simply call for all to have a rational honest conversation about what is happening both worldwide and, in my case, Britain.

    It starts with stopping the deflection, with the media doing its job, for example reprinting both Danish and Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

    The government, particularly in America, needs to call is what it is, Islamic terrorism.

    As people we should call out racism when we see it but not call all attempts to address the many problems as bigotry. Otherwise we are simply handing the conversation to the far right.
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    Personally I don't think "Islamic terrorism" is even a good description for what's going on, really there are actually three distinct phenomena that overlap:

    1) You have your grievance-based extremism which comes from anger about western wars in the middle east, support for Israel, police repression etc. Anger about those issues exists in every faith group in Europe but there's going to be more anger from Muslims given that they are the ones who are being directly affected by this.

    2) You have 'communal' or 'honour-based' violence. Anger about the Muhammad cartoons for instance, along with examples like sectarian killings, attacks on apostates or so-called blasphemers. Again this is not a faith-centred issue but a cultural one, non-Muslims do those things too.

    3) And finally you have actual ideologically-driven Salafi fanaticism of the sort that groups like ISIS or the Saudi clergy adhere to. For those sects there doesn't necessarily need to be any sort of grievance or offence to justify violence, terror is justified for its own sake. Ideological terror like this is mostly a Muslim problem, but there's also a similar but much smaller non-Muslim movement in the form of Neo-Nazism.

    Each of these different terror threats exists across religious and ethnic boundaries, but in the Muslim community all three happen to come together at once and inter-connect with each other. You have a cultural group with a strong sense of communal or collective honour suffering from a variety of legitimate grievances and at the same time you have a violent ideology that can feed off of those sentiments. The differences between these tendencies are too subtle for the media and the public to really pick up, creating the impression that there is a single phenomenon of 'Islamic' terrorism.
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    (Original post by Damien96)
    It isn't incumbent on those trying to deal with it to come up with a snappy answer. I haven't got a solution, I simply call for all to have a rational honest conversation about what is happening both worldwide and, in my case, Britain.
    If I believe that during this rational debate someone is misrepresenting the general Muslim population then, for the sake of accuracy and rationality, I would need to highlight that. It would be dishonest to continue a debate under a premise known to be inaccurate. Once those involved can manage to understand that this is a significant issue and can manage to talk about it in a proportionate way we can perhaps have a debate.

    It starts with stopping the deflection, with the media doing its job, for example reprinting both Danish and Charlie Hebdo cartoons.
    The media prints what it wants to print. There is nothing compelling them to print something just because they can.

    The government, particularly in America, needs to call is what it is, Islamic terrorism.
    When it does happen, that is what it is called. When it does happen.




    As people we should call out racism when we see it but not call all attempts to address the many problems as bigotry. Otherwise we are simply handing the conversation to the far right.
    See my first point.
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    [QUOTE=offhegoes;65389701]If I believe that during this rational debate someone is misrepresenting the general Muslim population then, for the sake of accuracy and rationality, I would need to highlight that. It would be dishonest to continue a debate under a premise known to be inaccurate. Once those involved can manage to understand that this is a significant issue and can manage to talk about it in a proportionate way we can perhaps have a debate.

    You believe is not a fact. If I see bigotry I will do the same, I didn't see that in this case. It is ironic that it was partly about a poll, which implicitly already tells us that not all Muslims are terrorists. Some are though, and many more support the cause, either politically or tactically. We are not talking of an insignificant minority, but you are absolutely right to say it is still a minority.

    You do not get to tell me or anyone else when we can have the debate I am happy to say. I do not need your permission, the permission of those Muslims who are defensive whenever the subject is broached or those that seek to deflect at every turn. As I said, the conversation is happening, you either try and frame it rationally or you allow fascists of all sides to bellow at each other.

    The media prints what it wants to print. There is nothing compelling them to print something just because they can.


    This is simply a matter of doing their job. They almost all decided not to reprint them, this was not an editorial decision based on importance of the story, it was cowardice, career and physical cowardice. If they had done their job in 2006, 2015 may not have happened. It should not be left to a small satirical magazine to take on religious fascism. Blood is on their hands.

    When it does happen, that is what it is called. When it does happen.




    Unfortunately I cannot watch videos where I am
 
 
 
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