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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't buy into the 'punish governments at the polls' malarkey.
    Not when uncle Rupert has so much sway.
    He'll die soon. In dire times, people should wake up and stop going with consensus. Anyone, it must be at least worth claiming our democracy back. I can't believe people would make a decision on the basis of Obama and everyone else telling them to, and a load of complacent globalists, when The US and Europe, southern especially, will plummet with climate change. It just isn't patriotic and you will consign yourselves to serfdom instead of pride and greatness, we should go with that great British tradition of distrusting illegitimate, pompous authority, and loving liberty, that made us the greatest. Please no more being battered down, and obedient. We will be a footnote after an in vote, reinforcing all the complacency, and acting in the interests of other nations not our own. I consider it total dereliction of duty for any patriot.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    He'll die soon. In dire times, people should wake up and stop going with consensus. Anyone, it must be at least worth claiming our democracy back. I can't believe people would make a decision on the basis of Obama and everyone else telling them to
    How dare Obama and Clinton say what the US's trade policy will be? That jumped up part-kenyan swine!

    It just isn't patriotic and you will consign yourselves to serfdom instead of pride and greatness, we should go with that great British tradition of distrusting illegitimate, pompous authority,


    Unless they happen to be our monarch...


    and loving liberty, that made us the greatest. Please no more being battered down, and obedient. We will be a footnote after an in vote, reinforcing all the complacency, and acting in the interests of other nations not our own. I consider it total dereliction of duty for any patriot.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

    We are not acting for any other states interest, we are sacrificing some of our freedom for our mutual benefit., In essence, its a European social contract.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    How dare Obama and Clinton say what the US's trade policy will be? That jumped up part-kenyan swine!

    [/b]

    Unless they happen to be our monarch...




    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

    We are not acting for any other states interest, we are sacrificing some of our freedom for our mutual benefit., In essence, its a European social contract.
    Uhh, he didn't just say that, but anyway he attempted to 'barrack' (Geddit) us into EU membership by saying we would be back of the cue. I couldn't care less what he says, and don't happen to think he deserves sycophancy, I think the interests of our own nation are first. Ah yes, he's black, that must be it. Very original argument.

    Uhh, don't be stupid, the monarchy has no such power, that's the whole point, it's something to be arbitrarily admired and looked up to, so that we don't have any reverence for the likes of politicians or demagogues, it's actually a nuanced appreciation for the fact that all that demands reverence and respect and the sanctity of their ideas is worthy of skepticism at least. In fact, I'd go so far to link it directly to our historical taste for liberty and dislike of centralised power, hence our disinterest in totalitarian fervours whipped up so often in other places.
    Oh yeah, and trying telling Obama or Clinton or any governing American that about patriotism, they don't share European leftists views, who themselves continue to advocate things for us they'd never advocate for the US.

    It's not to anyones mutual benefit, that's why countries like Ireland and Portugal have their elections overriden by bullying autocrats, what Catalonia is not allowed to democratically determined whether they want independence, and why the unemployment is so awful in southern Europe.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    How dare Obama and Clinton say what the US's trade policy will be? That jumped up part-kenyan swine!
    Completely missing the point that this deal would affect our own policy as well. I don't think giving big business the opportunity to sue democratically elected governments for passing laws they don't like is a good idea. And what is often described as "harmonising" regulations is likely to mean reduced regulations if we're not careful.

    I take a precautionary principle approach to TTIP, and will remain opposed to it until convinced otherwise.
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    (Original post by RF_PineMarten)
    Completely missing the point that this deal would affect our own policy as well. I don't think giving big business the opportunity to sue democratically elected governments for passing laws they don't like is a good idea. And what is often described as "harmonising" regulations is likely to mean reduced regulations if we're not careful.

    I take a precautionary principle approach to TTIP, and will remain opposed to it until convinced otherwise.
    People on that political side, are are rarely objective or even thoughtful, they have made their mind up, and will caricature and dismiss people against it as bigots, knowing nothing of them. they think it fine to sling accusations of racism at them they wouldn't dream of at the other side, with zero evidence. And how can the Eu migration issue be about racism, when the immigrants we take from there are white? If we vote out, it's not just us, but for example the French who would benefit, they have rejected TTIP but some faceless EU shill from Sweden is trying to ram it down their throats. Should a great, independent thinking nation such as France with such cultural clout and it's own nuclear arsenal and military, be reduced to an obedient part of an autocratic, German controlled, globalist empire. No way. Even the likes of Greece can rebalance their economies, of course they will be poor and have problems, but they will be able to get by frankly better, in terms of the long term and the very poorest, controlling their borders and migration levels etc, than by trying to integrate their economy with the Eurozone and the Germans. Sooner we end this thing the better.
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    (Original post by RF_PineMarten)
    Completely missing the point that this deal would affect our own policy as well.
    ...But the brexiters were saying we would get it...
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    People on that political side, are are rarely objective or even thoughtful, they have made their mind up, and will caricature and dismiss people against it as bigots, knowing nothing of them. they think it fine to sling accusations of racism.
    Yeah, well that's politics. People like you are quite happy to denigrate IN voters as brainwashed zombies at best or Corporate shills at worst.

    Boris shouldn't have said stuff like the president of the united states was influenced by his part kenyan ancestry etc etc etc plus the stuff that Farage comes out with
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Yeah, well that's politics. People like you are quite happy to denigrate IN voters as brainwashed zombies at best or Corporate shills at worst.

    Boris shouldn't have said stuff like the president of the united states was influenced by his part kenyan ancestry etc etc etc plus the stuff that Farage comes out with
    No, it isn't, I disagree with my opponents misguided views, I don't throw around cheap smears about attitudes they are presumed to possess. The Kenyan thing was loved by the left in this country, taken on in the same imprecise way as always as racism. It was totally stupid of Johnson to say it and think this wouldn't happen, knowing what they are like, but it wasn't racism. He was suggesting the colonial exploits of the UK in Kenya might make Obama less than fond of the UK's he is half Kenyan. No point in attempting nuance though, it will be seized upon and everything will be reduced to a cheap stupid level. I will grant maybe it was a cheap point but it was cheap to say it was racist too.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    He'll die soon. In dire times, people should wake up and stop going with consensus. Anyone, it must be at least worth claiming our democracy back. I can't believe people would make a decision on the basis of Obama and everyone else telling them to, and a load of complacent globalists, when The US and Europe, southern especially, will plummet with climate change. It just isn't patriotic and you will consign yourselves to serfdom instead of pride and greatness, we should go with that great British tradition of distrusting illegitimate, pompous authority, and loving liberty, that made us the greatest. Please no more being battered down, and hobedient. We will be a footnote after an in vote, reinforcing all the complacency, and acting in the interests of other nations not our own. I consider it total dereliction of duty for any patriot.
    I have the be pragmatic.
    If we had a centre left progressive labour government being thwarted by the EU I'd vote to leave. But as it is we have a right wing, potentially even more right wing Tory government in the waiting.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I have the be pragmatic.
    If we had a centre left progressive labour government being thwarted by the EU I'd vote to leave. But as it is we have a right wing, potentially even more right wing Tory government in the waiting.
    So you will base your decision on extreme short termism, even though we will be the ones, with climate change, best positioned to prosper while the US and Europe decline?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So you will base your decision on extreme short termism, even though we will be the ones, with climate change, best positioned to prosper while the US and Europe decline?
    Yep. Pretty much. Plus I like a lot of environmental things the eu does.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yep. Pretty much. Plus I like a lot of environmental things the eu does.
    Why short termism? And if you care about the enviroment, why vote tor remain in a body that wants to force TTIP on it's people, which will grant American corporations impunity and vast power in Europe, do you think they will be environmentally concerned? Fracking? Hormone treated meat, horribly low cosmetic standards, and more... And why do you want a neverending tide of low wage labour, and continuing overpopulation of England, which will take the brunt of it, if you value our countryside?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Why short termism? And if you care about the enviroment, why vote tor remain in a body that wants to force TTIP on it's people, which will grant American corporations impunity and vast power in Europe, do you think they will be environmentally concerned? Fracking? Hormone treated meat, horribly low cosmetic standards, and more... And why do you want a neverending tide of low wage labour, and continuing overpopulation of England, which will take the brunt of it, if you value our countryside?
    I don't trust the Tories to fix any of Those things nor that they won't sell off our NHS anyway.

    Leaving the EU because you think it's too right wing, only to then give an uber right wing Tory government power is incredibly idealistic and unpragmatic.

    I'm a pragmatist.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't trust the Tories to fix any of Those things nor that they won't sell off our NHS anyway.

    Leaving the EU because you think it's too right wing, only to then give an uber right wing Tory government power is incredibly idealistic and unpragmatic.

    I'm a pragmatist.
    What on earth are you talking about?? That is simply insane, I'm talking about reclaiming our long term sovereignty democracy, I care slightly more about that that than waiting three years for an election, in which period plenty of political awareness can be raised, and also they simply won't be able to put in right wing measures, because they will be trying to save their party, on the back foot and the pubic will hold the cards. I think you are absolutely mad to use that rationale. Stop this defeatist rubbish about how we can't get what we want in our own democracy, so we should give away all our power to a failed superstate, it's just bonkers, and not to mention unbelievably depressing and disheartening.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    What on earth are you talking about?? That is simply insane, I'm talking about reclaiming our long term sovereignty democracy, I care slightly more about that that than waiting three years for an election, in which period plenty of political awareness can be raised, and also they simply won't be able to put in right wing measures, because they will be trying to save their party, on the back foot and the pubic will hold the cards. I think you are absolutely mad to use that rationale. Stop this defeatist rubbish about how we can't get what we want in our own democracy, so we should give away all our power to a failed superstate, it's just bonkers, and not to mention unbelievably depressing and disheartening.
    I don't buy into the 'let's retake sovereignty' crap.
    We live in a globalized world. Any deal we sign will involve giving up sovereignty unless we want to live in our own isolated enclave.

    I also like a great deal of the laws the EU makes such as workers protections and health and safety guidelines which I am far from convinced that a Tory government will uphold.

    I like working with our European neighbors. I like a world moving closer together. I like freedom of movement.

    It's not perfect no, but better to be a part of it than not. If we had a centre left progressive government then maybe i'd consider out. But instead we have uber right wing Boris Johnson in the waiting.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Scaremongering. How naive do you have to be to think that we wouldn't be joining TTIP with a Tory government? TTIP is coming whether we leave or not, the only difference is that staying in the EU gives us more power to negotiate. The Tories would sell the whole country if given the chance.
    It's either a matter of we will be forced into it under the EU, or there's a maybe that our democratically elected government would sign us up.

    If they did, we can elect a new government, we can leave it.
    Same cannot be said for the EU.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't buy into the 'let's retake sovereignty' crap.
    We live in a globalized world. Any deal we sign will involve giving up sovereignty unless we want to live in our own isolated enclave.

    I also like a great deal of the laws the EU makes such as workers protections and health and safety guidelines which I am far from convinced that a Tory government will uphold.

    I like working with our European neighbors. I like a world moving closer together. I like freedom of movement.

    It's not perfect no, but better to be a part of it than not. If we had a centre left progressive government then maybe i'd consider out. But instead we have uber right wing Boris Johnson in the waiting.
    Let's have a little scenario.
    The day is June 24th, and Britain has just voted to leave the EU. Union flag buntings go up everywhere, and many messages of congratulations come from abroad.
    Suddenly, a dark cloud looms!
    The very earth splits in twain, a glowing red crack is revealed, and from it rises Boris Johnson himself.
    "NO MORE WORKERS RIGHTS!" he booms, "WE'RE PRIVATISING THE QUEEN!"
    Now, rightly, people are a bit miffed at this. They wait until the next general election. What do you think these people do at the general election?

    Do they -
    A) Elect the government they do not like
    or
    B) Elect the government who promises to repeal Boris Satan's wicked laws?

    Hint: It's A. The Lib Dems betrayed students on fees, and are now virtually irrelevant politically.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Let's have a little scenario.
    The day is June 24th, and Britain has just voted to leave the EU. Union flag buntings go up everywhere, and many messages of congratulations come from abroad.
    Suddenly, a dark cloud looms!
    The very earth splits in twain, a glowing red crack is revealed, and from it rises Boris Johnson himself.
    "NO MORE WORKERS RIGHTS!" he booms, "WE'RE PRIVATISING THE QUEEN!"
    Now, rightly, people are a bit miffed at this. They wait until the next general election. What do you think these people do at the general election?

    Do they -
    A) Elect the government they do not like
    or
    B) Elect the government who promises to repeal Boris Satan's wicked laws?

    Hint: It's A. The Lib Dems betrayed students on fees, and are now virtually irrelevant politically.
    Except it wouldn't happen like that. It would be more subtle and not to mention the role of the Murdoch press. I don't trust the British public to make the correct decision or else we wouldn't have a tory government right now frankly.

    The EU provides safeguards which a tory government, backed by uncle Rupert combined with a poor labour leader will pretty much provide a blank cheque to the tories.

    The tories passed the Bedroom tax and still got elected ffs, I don't trust the public to do the right thing.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Except it wouldn't happen like that. It would be more subtle and not to mention the role of the Murdoch press. I don't trust the British public to make the correct decision or else we wouldn't have a tory government right now frankly.

    The EU provides safeguards which a tory government, backed by uncle Rupert combined with a poor labour leader will pretty much provide a blank cheque to the tories.

    The tories passed the Bedroom tax and still got elected ffs, I don't trust the public to do the right thing.
    What happened to the Lib Dems, if not what I described?

    We can look forward to probably managing to push through PR after we leave the EU too, last years elections were awful when it comes to representation.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What happened to the Lib Dems, if not what I described?

    We can look forward to probably managing to push through PR after we leave the EU too, last years elections were awful when it comes to representation.
    The Lib Dems lost to a further right wing party who now want to raise tuition fees even further. Great example.

    Not a chance we will have PR under a tory government. FPTP favours them too much. Conversely the European Parliament is PR.

    I'd rather have legal enforcement of our rights than leave them in the hands of a right wing tory government and a public that only recently voted them into power.
 
 
 
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