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    its rigged so brexiters stop wasting your time
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    Lol great sentences guys :ahee:
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    (Original post by Southwestern)
    On my preference: 'Remain' is the only choice that is liberal, internationalist, open-minded, forwards-thinking and outwards-looking, striving years into the future and not reaching decades into the past, and not heralding a far cry from the brutal past of Europe when European wars massacred European generations, when European borders obstructed European freedom and when European rivalry plugged European prosperity; 'Remain' is also the only choice for working towards the liberal, federal, fully-democratic, maximum-devolved United States of Europe that the peoples of Europe would prefer to the current European Union with its democratic flaws and issues.

    On the campaign: Have both campaigns got NOTHING positive to say about their side?!?!

    It's quite a long sentence, granted
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I would argue it more the other way around, remain argues on ideals, such as somehow reversing our fortunes of being unable to reform the EU since before we were even members. I'm not quite sure how I would describe the problems with the leave campaign, but it is certainly far from perfect. Not sure how to describe in such a way that I accept that it isn't right but can't put my finger on it.

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    (Original post by TheGreatPumpkin)
    I get what you mean with the remain, although I think the demographic you are referring to are the younger voters who believe change can be achieved, whereas I'm referring to the minute benefits which seem to be the vanguard of remain such as roaming charges. I'm not entirely sure what you mean regarding leave, I assume the abstractness of the terms sovereignty and independence with little to no long term planning.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Certainly the remain campaign relies on arguing that things that do not require EU membershipare only possible in the EU, and then of course you get half the crap Cameron spouts.

    As I said for leave, I can't quite put my finger on it. It would like people to be more honest and not use the £350m figure but the post rebate figure (bit not net) as I try to when talking to people, and I like they are honest that they don't know what will happen economically if we leave, because nobody does, but would like them to make some argument, even if it is merely rebutting the treasury claims and arguing that they are somewhat contradictory, as I have done on this site. As I said, I'm not quite sure why it doesn't feel right, it just does. Probably largely the half truths, I've been reading Hannan's "why vote leave" and constantly have that minor irritation that he is being intentionally deceptive, being able to see the difference between what he is saying and what he writes, even if it is otherwise a very good and informative"book".

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    I want out government to spend all of its time working for the best interests of our country alone.
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    (Original post by TheGreatPumpkin)
    Soo... politicians being politicians and pretending or being genuinely unaware of consequences and using it to score empathy points with voters, it's more than Cameron could ever do.
    Sorta. I would say less the second part and more just the politicians being politicians; and I have no idea how many times I've been told I sound like a politician, so I'm hardly exempt from it, and often do it intentionally, although on the matter of the eu I see honesty to be the better policy, at least on some things, because it sounds more humbling and I would argue that openly saying to somebody that neither is accurate from my POV would co!e across better than simply spouting the line.

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    (Original post by Vladny)
    We are doomed either way, Britain is dying
    Agreed. We should probably do something about it.
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    (Original post by Southwestern)
    On my preference: 'Remain' is the only choice that is liberal, internationalist, open-minded, forwards-thinking and outwards-looking, striving years into the future and "not reaching decades into the past," [This part is just offensive.] and not heralding a far cry from the brutal past of Europe when European wars massacred European generations, when European borders obstructed European freedom and when European rivalry plugged European prosperity; 'Remain' is also the only choice for working towards the liberal, "federal" [This word is also offensive.], fully-democratic, maximum-devolved [??? How much do you actually understanding the structure of the EU?] United States of Europe that the peoples of Europe would prefer to the current European Union with its democratic flaws and issues.

    On the campaign: Have both campaigns got NOTHING positive to say about their side?!?!

    It's quite a long sentence, granted
    All the red flags.

    Some of the stuff here is actually offensive to me as a leave supporter, but I'm not going to say that to quell your voice.

    How is it that the leave side is grasping for straws in the past, in place of the remain side? Remember the arguments many remain people use; uncertainty from change, why fix what isn't broken (despite it being broken), benefit access to single market (reason we joined in 1973, despite things having now changed).

    I'd have thought democracy, despite its flaws, being the way forward.

    I think you might need to double-check your understanding of the words "federal" and "devolved".

    The EU is undemocratic because in the EU there are the European Parliament and the European Commission.
    In the European Parliament there are UK representatives working in our interest.
    In the European Commission there is an UK representative bound by oath to work in the EU's interest.

    In the European Parliament representatives can vote for or against legislation; they cannot propose legislation, they have no legislative initiative. They can't propose, amend or repeal legislation.

    Only the European Commission can propose, amend or repeal legislation. But remember also, that our representative works in the EU's interest, not ours.

    Also, the system which they have is degressive proportionality. In other words, in our situation, one of our representatives has more people "assigned" to him than other countries. (I'm not sure what the best word to use for that is.)(Hard to explain that one.)
    .
    .
    Now economic reasons... I'll quote this post I made a day or so ago. There are more reasons, but I have important things to be doing right now.

    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Also, onto other disadvantages, is a worse economy.

    Look at the Common External Tariff placed on foreign goods; a tariff used to protect trade, but stalls development in third world countries and drives up food prices. [I'll expand, the tariff protects EU farmers from competition elsewhere. This is because less supermarkets source from "elsewhere" because it is too expensive. The "elsewhere" farmers have a smaller market. This creates regional monopolies for EU farmers. less competition means prices can increase. This is why we have much higher food prices than places like the US.]

    Look at the higher energy prices due to CO2 emission taxation; it doesn't even reduce CO2 emission, because the companies simply relocate, and as a result we only get higher energy prices! [i.e. it costs too much for businesses to produce energy, so they relocate and provide elsewhere. This doesn't stop the carbon emissions though.]

    Look at the £55 million EU membership fees/day; only half is put back into this country, and we don't even get to decide how it is spent! [This also comes with an EU flag, "made / funded by the European Commission". Unfair EU propaganda despite us paying the membership fees.]

    Only some of the qualities of EU membership!
    I expanded upon them, and there are more reasons, regarding fisheries usw. usf. (etc. etc.)

    (Original post by sullyomo)
    undecided: someone sway me
    Above.

    (Original post by Asuna Yuuki)
    Don't vote Leave, vote Steve
    Just in case you actually hold the remain sentiment... above.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Sorta. I would say less the second part and more just the politicians being politicians; and I have no idea how many times I've been told I sound like a politician, so I'm hardly exempt from it, and often do it intentionally, although on the matter of the eu I see honesty to be the better policy, at least on some things, because it sounds more humbling and I would argue that openly saying to somebody that neither is accurate from my POV would co!e across better than simply spouting the line.

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    Now I get what you mean :ms:
    I think.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I'm saying this as a solid and active Brexiteer and would say it applies heavily to both sides: Can the campaigns just start being honest about things and stop being intentionally misleading?!
    I've got to say this it is very unfair on the pro Brexit campaign that the pro EU side is publishing utter lies and they are clever to say these lies have been produced by the Government who support the EU campaign clearly this is a position of conflict so the Government shouldn't actually be allowed to produce any statistics.

    I have concluded that it is unlikely there will be any significant effect on the economy as a result of Brexit, the reasons for this are pretty obvious are countries really just going to say no trading anymore as you are not in the EU(they are not childish!) and wait a second how come the USA don't have such a poor economy considering they aren't part of some South American Union(many many countries have shown a lot of success outside the EU)?

    The major reason why the UK would be largely unaffected is due to the country's reputation it is very strong and leaving the EU isn't going to change that, for a low reputation country like Turkey joining the EU would provide a massive boost for them but not for the UK.In terms of reputation the UK is practically the top of the world apart from the USA which has a better reputation.

    The reason I didn't say no effect is because there is likely to be some reduce in trade as a result of the Government's scare mongering making people think the UK would be worse of.However, there are good arguments that we would be worse off in the EU considering the instability of the Eurozone. So economically I'd have to split my vote.

    I will be voting to stay in the EU though because "We need to stay together to solve the world's problems".How are we going to tackle issues like the refugee crisis, climate change without being part of the EU I'm certainly not that happy with how the EU deals with some issues but I have to accept that things would virtually always be worse without the EU intervening.I want a World Union some day where the world can come together and solve its issues.

    I am also a fan of immigration and want to see more people coming here from Europe and international students from the EU would have to pay extortionate prices for their tuition.I do accept the Brexit argument that its unfair on immigrants from outside the EU but the truth is that Brexit isn't really going to help them its going to help nobody and it will be harder for everyone to immigrate and I would like to help some people rather than no people.However, leaving the EU may well mean that there won't be that much change to immigration as we may well have to sign up to several trade deals for access to the best workers from Europe and maybe even Schengen.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    The EU Referendum, a game where not one voter knows what they are voting for.
    Yet some know more about what they're voting for than others. (And I dare say, the pinnacle seem to be in the brexit camp.)

    Don't get me wrong; plenty of reasons brexit people use are bloody stupid. But then the ones that know the most tend to be brexiteers.

    #justsaying
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Yet some know more about what they're voting for than others. (And I dare say, the pinnacle seem to be in the brexit camp.)

    Don't get me wrong; plenty of reasons brexit people use are bloody stupid. But then the ones that know the most tend to be brexiteers.

    #justsaying
    I would disagree but that's that.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I'm saying this as a solid and active Brexiteer and would say it applies heavily to both sides: Can the campaigns just start being honest about things and stop being intentionally misleading?!
    I would echo this. You'd think the apocalypse was coming regardless of how we vote.
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    Not even politicians have a clue.

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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Not even politicians have a clue.

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    Politicians especially do not have a clue

    might be closer to the mark re a one sentence definition.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I'm saying this as a solid and active Brexiteer and would say it applies heavily to both sides: Can the campaigns just start being honest about things and stop being intentionally misleading?!
    This^^^

    Right now we're apparently faced with the choice of WW3 or being invaded by millions of Jihadists.
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    If we're doomed either way everyone may as well spend June 23rd getting wasted on the biggest cocktail of booze and drugs they can find and go out in style.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    This^^^

    Right now we're apparently faced with the choice of WW3 or being invaded by millions of Jihadists.
    I belive there is a genuine terrorism related threat to remaining, however there it is MASSIVELY overstated and should be, at most, an addendum to the migration debate

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I belive there is a genuine terrorism related threat to remaining, however there it is MASSIVELY overstated and should be, at most, an addendum to the migration debate

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    You can make a case either way but security cooperation will carry on regardless anyway. I'm a remain voter but I just switch off tbh when they start spouting crap about the EU keeping the peace, you'd think NATO never existed based on what they're saying.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    You can make a case either way but security cooperation will carry on regardless anyway. I'm a remain voter but I just switch off tbh when they start spouting crap about the EU keeping the peace, you'd think NATO never existed based on what they're saying.
    Indeed, the peace has been maintained through a combination of NATO, nuclear weapons, and the at least relatively democratic nature of the states involved. And as I have said multiple times in multiple threads, intelligence is shared on a bilateral, not multilateral basis, the utmost priority is keeping the operatives safe.

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    If you're not voting leave then you are truly misinformed and brainwashed by the self-interested views of our government.
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    (Original post by pelaitsc45)
    If you're not voting leave then you are truly misinformed and brainwashed by the self-interested views of our government.
    I suppose that the 9/10 professional economists who stated that voting to leave was a bad idea were "misinformed" too? Or how about the vast number of number business who are against the brexit, are they naive too? I suppose that abandoning are biggest trade partner seems like the informed and logical choice(by your criteria anyway).


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    Ha
    (Original post by RasputinReborn)
    I suppose that the 9/10 professional economists who stated that voting to leave was a bad idea were "misinformed" too? Or how about the vast number of number business who are against the brexit, are they naive too? I suppose that abandoning are biggest trade partner seems like the informed and logical choice(by your criteria anyway).


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    Haha, let me see a source for these '9/10 professional economists'. This literally tells me nothing and that you have no idea why you have your opinion in the first place. In fact, you reinforce this by saying the vast number of businesses are against brexit.

    Let me explain something to you, the EU has thousands upon thousands of regulations on anything you can name, your car, your carpet, your keyboard you're typing on. These regulations make it very, very difficult for new companies to start up and compete with well established corporations. So, of course the bloody huge companies will support the regulations that the EU puts on everything because it reduces competition making it so they never have to innovate. You're so misinformed it's hilarious. The EU has awful effects on economies, in fact, countries in the EU are going through a stage of huge unemployment and economic difficulty due to the WTO (World, Trade Organisation) finally eradicating the crazy tariffs the EU put on foreign goods.

    Don't even argue with your stupid phrases like 'all the economists agree!' just because you took a glance at a newspaper with self-interested bias.
 
 
 
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