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I no longer believe in heaven or hell. Muslim Watch

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    It's okay, you can still be a Muslim and not believe in heaven or hell. This is because it's your interpretation of the faith - if you don't see a rational reason for heaven or hell (or even believing in a God) then why would you be punished by God for thinking? Every Muslim is different, you are allowed to have your views.

    Personally I'm a Muslim who believes in God but I don't literally believe in heaven or hell - or even a God that affects what happens in the world we live in. Maybe there is something resembling heaven or hell I am not sure. I just think this isn't all and there's something else - that is Allah.

    You can believe in a liberal interpretation if it suits you all you want - or even leave the faith if you feel like it. Don't feel pressure to stay please as that itself is unislamic to force you.

    The most famous logicians of all time believe in spirits or God - and one in particular openly said that an Afterlife is logical.
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    It's okay, you can still be a Muslim and not believe in heaven or hell. This is because it's your interpretation of the faith - if you don't see a rational reason for heaven or hell (or even believing in a God) then why would you be punished by God for thinking? Every Muslim is different, you are allowed to have your views.

    Personally I'm a Muslim who believes in God but I don't literally believe in heaven or hell - or even a God that affects what happens in the world we live in. Maybe there is something resembling heaven or hell I am not sure. I just think this isn't all and there's something else - that is Allah.

    You can believe in a liberal interpretation if it suits you all you want - or even leave the faith if you feel like it. Don't feel pressure to stay please as that itself is unislamic to force you.

    The most famous logicians of all time believe in spirits or God - and one in particular openly said that an Afterlife is logical.
    You can't (to a lot of things in the quoted post).

    OP ignore the above information because what he is saying goes against Islamic basics.
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    (Original post by Scythia)
    You can't (to a lot of things in the quoted post).

    OP ignore the above information because what he is saying goes against Islamic basics.
    Nice. So I'm wrong and you're right, cool. Let's break down your stupid statement.

    1)ISIS think you're an infidel because you don't take the Quran as literally as them. (They literally think this, I'm not making this up)
    2)You think I'm an infidel because I don't take the Quran as literally as you.

    Now, who's correct? Going purely by logic, ISIS are correct here as they take the Quran most literally.

    "Islamic basics" please define the basics of Islam. You may give me the 5 pillars, but ISIS will give me many more basics and Saudi Arabians will give me some other basics and Indonesian Muslims will give different basics of Islam. The point I'm making is everyone takes the Islamic faith in a different interpretation and you can't say one is right or wrong - or else that makes you a fundamentalist.

    p.s. if I am going against Islamic basics for not believing in a metaphorical scripture literally then how come you probably have friends who are Christians or Jews? Chapter 5 verse 52. Doesn't that also make you an infidel?
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    Nice. So I'm wrong and you're right, cool. Let's break down your stupid statement.

    1)ISIS think you're an infidel because you don't take the Quran as literally as them. (They literally think this, I'm not making this up)
    2)You think I'm an infidel because I don't take the Quran as literally as you.

    Now, who's correct? Going purely by logic, ISIS are correct here as they take the Quran most literally.

    "Islamic basics" please define the basics of Islam. You may give me the 5 pillars, but ISIS will give me many more basics and Saudi Arabians will give me some other basics and Indonesian Muslims will give different basics of Islam. The point I'm making is everyone takes the Islamic faith in a different interpretation and you can't say one is right or wrong - or else that makes you a fundamentalist.

    p.s. if I am going against Islamic basics for not believing in a metaphorical scripture literally then how come you probably have friends who are Christians or Jews? Chapter 5 verse 52. Doesn't that also make you an infidel?
    Great point. Most of the Muslim friends I have are on same spectrum as you. I personally do not understand the fundamentalist types, you have to adapt to the 21st century. My friends have said that the Quran asks for its believers to seek greater truth/ knowledge.
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    (Original post by Themini)
    Great point. Most of the Muslim friends I have are on same spectrum as you. I personally do not understand the fundamentalist types, you have to adapt to the 21st century. My friends have said that the Quran asks for its believers to seek greater truth/ knowledge.
    Same here,some of these ISOC people are crazy.
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    Same here,some of these ISOC people are crazy.
    Before I joined TSR I never saw so many of them from the same spectrum.
    Islamphobes, racists, right wingers and these guys.

    They're all the same.
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    Nice. So I'm wrong and you're right, cool. Let's break down your stupid statement.

    1)ISIS think you're an infidel because you don't take the Quran as literally as them. (They literally think this, I'm not making this up)
    2)You think I'm an infidel because I don't take the Quran as literally as you.

    Now, who's correct? Going purely by logic, ISIS are correct here as they take the Quran most literally.

    "Islamic basics" please define the basics of Islam. You may give me the 5 pillars, but ISIS will give me many more basics and Saudi Arabians will give me some other basics and Indonesian Muslims will give different basics of Islam. The point I'm making is everyone takes the Islamic faith in a different interpretation and you can't say one is right or wrong - or else that makes you a fundamentalist.

    p.s. if I am going against Islamic basics for not believing in a metaphorical scripture literally then how come you probably have friends who are Christians or Jews? Chapter 5 verse 52. Doesn't that also make you an infidel?
    You really have next to no clue about Islam or what you're talking about.

    There are things on which there is no difference of opinion - such as heaven and hell. If anyone says anything different then it's false and they will rejected.

    Islam isn't a religion where any Tom, **** or Harry, can come and say "that's my interpretation and that's Islam for me".

    Well one basic is that there is heaven and hell and there is no other opinion on this.

    You can say something is right or wrong, especially on clear matters like this where there is only room for one thing. Fundamentalist? No it makes me a normal Muslim.

    I wouldn't take them for allies.

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    (Original post by Kadak)
    Same here,some of these ISOC people are crazy.
    The funny thing is that you can say that now but if you ever read Islamic texts, you'll find the Prophet (pbuh) and the companions followed what the average isocer believes. So therefore I wonder would your insult apply to them also.

    You can be dishonest with yourself for a while but even you won't be able to ignore the voice in your head which points out what I said in my first paragraph.


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    (Original post by Scythia)
    You really have next to no clue about Islam or what you're talking about.

    There are things on which there is no difference of opinion - such as heaven and hell. If anyone says anything different then it's false and they will rejected.

    Islam isn't a religion where any Tom, **** or Harry, can come and say "that's my interpretation and that's Islam for me".

    Well one basic is that there is heaven and hell and there is no other opinion on this.

    You can say something is right or wrong, especially on clear matters like this where there is only room for one thing. Fundamentalist? No it makes me a normal Muslim.

    I don't have any.

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    As a Muslim for 16 years and a strong follower of many scholars, professors and public figures like Maajid Nawaz and Reza Aslan - I think I know what I'm talking about.

    Now you just cherry picked Heaven and Hell as something I am forced to believe in. Why just them? Are the other things in the Quran like not being allowed to have Christian friends not worthy enough to be believed? Someone who chooses to believe in half of a scripture is a fundamentalist. I believe in the entire Quran - symbolically.

    "Islam isn't a religion where any Tom, **** or Harry, can come and say "that's my interpretation and that's Islam for me"." Yet you have a different interpretation of Islam than ISIS, me or some Indonesian Muslim. Who is correct?

    "Well one basic is that there is heaven and hell and there is no other opinion on this." Yes there is, my opinion and potentially hundreds of thousands of secular Muslims. Lol.

    You've never been friends with a Christian or Jew ever in your life? Okay...
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    (Original post by Justfedup)
    So being a muslim a strong beleif my whole life this is weird. Like starting 2 years ago I was loosing faith in God which is kinda sad.

    It was cos of a guy but I feel like I am no longer afraid of sinning. I never think satan is influencing me or that I need to obey god and make him happy with me like I used to be.

    I don't think about heaven or hell anymore which shocks me.

    I would love to renew my faith once again. Pm please if you think u can help.



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    You just need to internalise the fact you're not a bad person, it's human to want love, excitement and warmth in another person.
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    As a Muslim for 16 years and a strong follower of many scholars, professors and public figures like Maajid Nawaz and Reza Aslan - I think I know what I'm talking about.

    Now you just cherry picked Heaven and Hell as something I am forced to believe in. Why just them? Are the other things in the Quran like not being allowed to have Christian friends not worthy enough to be believed? Someone who chooses to believe in half of a scripture is a fundamentalist. I believe in the entire Quran - symbolically.

    "Islam isn't a religion where any Tom, **** or Harry, can come and say "that's my interpretation and that's Islam for me"." Yet you have a different interpretation of Islam than ISIS, me or some Indonesian Muslim. Who is correct?

    "Well one basic is that there is heaven and hell and there is no other opinion on this." Yes there is, my opinion and potentially hundreds of thousands of secular Muslims. Lol.

    You've never been friends with a Christian or Jew ever in your life? Okay...
    You don't know what you're talking about. The fact you're a follower of Reza Aslan and Maajid Nawaaz is probably the reason. The former is someone who holds some strange unislamic beliefs and the latter is heralded far and wide as an enemy of the British Muslims and a hypocrite.

    Symbolically is a nice cop out. In other words you reject various parts of the Quran.

    Let me make this clear. There is no difference of opinion over this hell/heaven issue. It is basic Islam. If a 16 year old disagrees then he's obviously wrong.

    There are legitimate differences of opinion on some issues where a considerable number of legitimate scholars (not 16 year old followers of Maajid Nawaaz) may argue a different view. There are no differences of opinion on other issues such as : Allah being one, the Quran fully being the word of Allah, heaven and hell, homosexuality being impermissible. On these issues there is no leway because is ijma.
    When I say difference of opinion. I don't mean your personal opinion or my personal opinion. I mean legitimate scholar opinion's which haven't been derived out of thin and can be supported by Quran and sunnah.


    Secular Muslim is an oxymoron.

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    (Original post by Scythia)
    You don't know what you're talking about. The fact you're a follower of Reza Aslan and Maajid Nawaaz is probably the reason. The former is someone who holds some strange unislamic beliefs and the latter is heralded far and wide as an enemy of the British Muslims and a hypocrite.

    Symbolically is a nice cop out. In other words you reject various parts of the Quran.

    Let me make this clear. There is no difference of opinion over this hell/heaven issue. It is basic Islam. If a 16 year old disagrees then he's obviously wrong.

    There are legitimate differences of opinion on some issues where a considerable number of legitimate scholars (not 16 year old followers of Maajid Nawaaz) may argue a different view. There are no differences of opinion on other issues such as : Allah being one, the Quran fully being the word of Allah, heaven and hell, homosexuality being impermissible. On these issues there is no leway because is ijma.

    Secular Muslim is an oxymoron.

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    sigh. Rubbishing PHd. scholars on religion is a sad, sad low. He holds more knowledge about religion in his left thumb then you will ever acquire in your life. He knows what he's talking about - you don't.

    It's clear I can't get this through your head - sadly. Please don't avoid my last two points. ISIS say you're wrong and you say I'm wrong. Who's right? You don't literally believe Prophet Mohammed went to heave on a winged horse. Do you?

    Homosexuality impermissible? This is vile thinking - in fact the Ottoman Empire were one of the first nations in the world to legalise homosexuality. Millions of Muslims disagree with you and many of them are gay themselves. It's *****y thinking like yours that lead to terrorist attacks. Disgrace. Not only that, but you get your idea of it being impermissible from a very careful interpretation of a Quranic story. It could be interpreted in a million other ways.

    "Symbolically is a nice cop out. " Thanks!
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    sigh. Rubbishing PHd. scholars on religion is a sad, sad low. He holds more knowledge about religion in his left thumb then you will ever acquire in your life. He knows what he's talking about - you don't.

    It's clear I can't get this through your head - sadly. Please don't avoid my last two points. ISIS say you're wrong and you say I'm wrong. Who's right? You don't literally believe Prophet Mohammed went to heave on a winged horse. Do you?

    Homosexuality impermissible? This is vile thinking - in fact the Ottoman Empire were one of the first nations in the world to legalise homosexuality. Millions of Muslims disagree with you and many of them are gay themselves. It's *****y thinking like yours that lead to terrorist attacks. Disgrace. Not only that, but you get your idea of it being impermissible from a very careful interpretation of a Quranic story. It could be interpreted in a million other ways.

    "Symbolically is a nice cop out. " Thanks!
    If you want to follow an islamic scholar then try people like Shaykh Akram Nadwi, Shaykh Haitham al Haddad. Reza Aslan is not an islamic scholar. I don't want to know about other religions in dept, so Reza can keep that knowledge but he should work on basic Islamic knowledge as it seems quite iffy. I'd have my Islam over his knowledge any day.

    They're wrong as a whole, modern day khawarij from the looks of it. Yes I am right and you're wrong.

    It was called Al-Burraq and yes there is nothing wrong with believing that.

    Nope. This is islamic thinking and has been Islamic fact for 1400 years. Poor argument, the Ottoman empire participating in an action does not automatically make that action Islamic. This is a rubbish Quilliamite argument which has been thrown around recently. They can disagree all they want but they're wrong. Actually no, many of the people who run away to ISIS etc... tend to have lived unislamic lives uptil very recently to their running away. People like you are probably more likely to become an ISIS member than a normal Muslim like me. There is only one interpretation to it and that is ijma.
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    (Original post by PrinceAli)
    .
    A lot of what you have said is Kufr. You can appeal to emotion by comparing differences if opinion to ISIS, but you are denying basic fundementals of Islam. If you continue to reject basic fundementals (which also includes the concept of Isra and Mi'raj) and deny parts of the Quran even after being given Naseeha, then you are slowly taking yourself outside of the fold of Islam. I would recommend some humility and put evidence and real knowledge over your own personal feelings.
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    (Original post by Scythia)
    They're wrong as a whole, modern day khawarij from the looks of it.
    And yet you accept Hadith narrated by khawarij.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    And yet you accept Hadith narrated by khawarij.
    You sure? I am technically a hanafi and the particular hadith you're talking about (no doubt the homosexuality one) is rejected by hanafis (AFAIk) so...

    Even then Epicurean, I wouldn't trust your word on hadiths anyway. I prefer listening to real hadith scholars and looking at the full picture, rather than taking a few select lines from some athiest whose obsessed with demonizing normal Muslims

    I think in one of the last attempts in conversation related to this, you tried to put across Ibn Abbas (ra) as a child rapist, so you can probably see why I think you're a bit of a joke now and I don't care to waste too much time with you.

    So how many paragraphs will you write (which I probably won't care to read for the most part or reply properly to) today to push this corrupt Islam agenda?
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    Zamestaneh Looks like I've become the new you :lol:
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    (Original post by Scythia)
    You sure? I am technically a hanafi and the particular hadith (no doubt the homosexuality one) you're talking about is rejected by hanafis (AFAIk) so...
    But you don't reject every Hadith by him do you? Which is to say that you have no qualms with khawarij narrating Hadith.

    Even then Epicurean, I wouldn't trust your word on hadiths anyway. I prefer listening to real hadith scholars and looking at the full picture, rather than taking a few select lines from some athiest whose obsessed with demonizing normal Muslims
    I've not made any comments on Hadith in this thread, other than to state that you are quite happy to accept Hadith narrated by khawarij.

    Ah yes, is that what you call yourself now. "Normal Muslim"
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    But you don't reject every Hadith by him do you? Which is to say that you have no qualms with khawarij narrating Hadith.



    I've not made any comments on Hadith in this thread, other than to state that you are quite happy to accept Hadith narrated by khawarij.

    Ah yes, is that what you call yourself now. "Normal Muslim"
    I don't know. I might do, I might not. I leave hadith science to the experts for now and let them decide what counts as authentic based on their methodology.

    Yes but we do know why you mentioned that and that's because you claim a khawariji was involved in transmitting/narrating the anti homosexuality hadith. Can we really not play this dumb

    Well ofcourse, I hold many normal Islamic beliefs which have been acknowledged as being correct through the ages by 10,000s of learned scholars and hence "normal Muslim".
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    (Original post by Scythia)
    I don't know. I might do, I might not. I leave hadith science to the experts for now and let them decide what counts as authentic based on their methodology.
    Ah yes, God forbid you should have to think for yourself. Being skeptical is overrated.

    Yes but we do know why you mentioned that and that's because you claim a khawarij was involved in transmitted the anti homosexuality hadith. Can we really not play this dumb
    I stated it merely because you mentioned khawarij in this thread. But if you wish to be paranoid and think every if a conspiracy, then go ahead.

    Well ofcourse, I hold many normal Islamic beliefs which have been acknowledged as being correct through the ages by 10,000s of learned scholars and hence "normal Muslim".
    I'm pretty sure many ISIS members have referred to themselves as 'normal Muslims' at some point. It's a very useful term, I'll give you that.
 
 
 
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